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The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

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Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#31

Post by PakG1 »

rwmj wrote: post #26
incremental wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can. As CEO, one of his responsibilities was to create an organisation that would endure. Apple itself may be Steve Job's greatest creation. The test of the next 10 years is to see if that is true.

As far as we know he didn't even organize his own succession, which is one of the most basic responsibilities of a CEO of a multinational. Even when he knew he was terminally ill. So I don't see much hope that he organized the rest of Apple as some great enduring company either.

Where do you get that? He recommended in his resignation memo to the board of directors that they make Tim Cook CEO, as per their succession plan.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#32

Post by bdunbar »

micah63 wrote: post #16

All Apple had to do to be different was to have their own factory in China (as opposed to contracting FoxConn), use the cheaper workforce, and treat the employees better. Blind outsourcing is the culprit here I believe.

All Apple had to do to ... was to have their own factory in China

Like that is easy.

Companies use organizations like FoxConn for a reason: cost is one of them.

Expertise is another. Apple is good at what they do. Being able to make the stuff they design requires a whole 'nother corporate skill set.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#33

Post by philwelch »

rwmj wrote: post #26
incremental wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can. As CEO, one of his responsibilities was to create an organisation that would endure. Apple itself may be Steve Job's greatest creation. The test of the next 10 years is to see if that is true.

As far as we know he didn't even organize his own succession, which is one of the most basic responsibilities of a CEO of a multinational. Even when he knew he was terminally ill. So I don't see much hope that he organized the rest of Apple as some great enduring company either.

Steve didn't make his succession plans public, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Publicly announcing your succession plan has no upside and lots of downside. Just ask Jay Leno or Brett Favre.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#34

Post by javert »

raganwald wrote: post #21
javert wrote: post #12

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? If people are being forced to work there by the government, then U.S. and European governments need to decide if they're willing to allow trade with a government that uses slave labor. (I highly doubt people are being forced to work there, though.)

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Now you are moving the goalposts from discussing Foxconn to the question of whether we should regulate free will. I’m not asking you to agree with my stance on any of the following questions, but I do ask you to recognize that they are equivalent to your question, and to…

I think that the questions you raise are extremely pertinent, so I agree with you there.

We have discovered that the free market will act in such a way that safe workplaces are extremely rare

I just don't buy that. I think "extremely rare," there, is a very gross exaggeration. And I think the frequency of dangerous workplaces greatly decreases, as national prosperity increases (which, modulo other kinds of interference, happens over time).

I mean, come on - even Foxconn is relatively safe. I'm not hearing accounts of people getting killed, I'm hearing (at worst) accounts of people being fired after acquiring certain kinds of repetitive stress injuries.

On the other hand, I do have a moral problem with someone forcefully interposing between two trading parties (in this case, employer and employee).

In fact, that kind of case is the only kind in which people are forcibly prevented from exercising their free will.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#35

Post by Domenic_S »

spacemanaki wrote: post #18
javert wrote: post #12

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? If people are being forced to work there by the government, then U.S. and European governments need to decide if they're willing to allow trade with a government that uses slave labor. (I highly doubt people are being forced to work there, though.)

> If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Well I care, for one. I think there are probably others who do too. Why can't it be both? Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? I think it's good that some people…

> Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions?

Because then the cost of our electronic devices would skyrocket. iPhone 5: $2,500 (with two-year agreement).

> I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade...

That's nice, but it doesn't change who made your old Android.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#36

Post by epochwolf »

afterburner wrote: post #23
bproper wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're probably right that this kind of inhumane labor extends to all gadgets. The article says as much. But isn't the point that Apple is lionized as a "revolutionary" company and Mr. Jobs as a "genius" and a humanitarian? And BTW, how is the opinion of expats and exchange students enough to speak for the whole nation? They are likely not the ones working in the factories.

Exactly! It is the reverence given to Steve Jobs that makes this particularly interesting. We all assume other companies are screwing someone over to get us cheap goods, but somehow Apple marketing made buying their products practically a religious experience.

> Apple marketing made buying their products practically a religious experience.

Not sure buying one is a religious experience. However, using their products definitely can be. It's annoying to have to reboot a device because it isn't connecting properly anymore after being on for a couple of weeks but it's nice knowing all you have to do is reboot. With other devices, a reboot is a hit or miss fix and you need to do it more often. I've only had one serious issue with macs that isn't fixed by a reboot and that's the network configuration holding on to dhcp leases or old certificates when they shouldn't.

The it just works stuff people talk about isn't completely accurate.

* My apple tv 1 shows up in itunes but nothing can connect to it. It's gone wandering again after a few weeks without a reboot. I think it's lonely.

* I couldn't get openvpn to compile on Lion, I had to find a workaround. Most of the issues I deal with are small things. The video drivers have never crashed on me.

It's not that everything just works. It's that more of it works than it does with other products. It also has a high amount of polish. I love the way OSX renders fonts. So much that using ubuntu makes me cry.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#37

Post by sofuture »

ktrgardiner wrote: post #14
pat2man wrote: post #8

I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourced manual labor. While he addresses he problems that are caused to Chinese workers it doesn't in any way address the fact that Chinese workers are joining companies like Fox Con every day in order to get themselves away from an even worse life. I encourage eve…

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away fr…

What an abhorrent view. It's a psychopathic justification to shrug off the horrible lives of other people directly impacted by my lifestyle because 'hey, they already had a worse life'.

I'm happy to admit I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I'd like to not forget or justify that away at the very least.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#38

Post by ktrgardiner »

jtbigwoo wrote: post #19
ktrgardiner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away fr…

And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from. If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right? The real problem here is that there's no recourse in our current economy. China makes well over half the electronics we buy so it's not like a boycott of Apple would necessarily hel…

In response to: If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right?

While I get what you are saying and am by no means arguing in favor of Fox Con, I believe you are turning my shades of gray argument back to black and white. There isn't a strict dividing line between the acceptable and unacceptable; it's a gradient. There is worse than Fox Con and there is worse than what is worse than Fox Con (and so on, ad nauseam).

My point is that it is foolish to use Fox Con as the poster child of this issue when there are far worse situations. It does a great disservice to the argument. Most people will stop at Fox Con in their exploration of the situation and say to themselves "That's horrible. We should do something about that," instead of "It's horrible that Fox Con is a better option for most people and that there is worse out there. We should dig deeper and fix the problem from the ground up until Fox Con is the worst of the worst and then we can fix that."

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#39

Post by ktrgardiner »

sofuture wrote: post #37
ktrgardiner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away fr…

What an abhorrent view. It's a psychopathic justification to shrug off the horrible lives of other people directly impacted by my lifestyle because 'hey, they already had a worse life'. I'm happy to admit I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I'd like to not forget or justify that away at the very least .

That is not what I am saying at all and I am sorry if that is how I am being interpreted. My comment was not made in malice or ignorance. Understanding that this is not the worst option is the first step to understanding the situation as a whole. Please read my response to jtbigwoo for further clarification.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#40

Post by spacemanaki »

Domenic_S wrote: post #35
spacemanaki wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Well I care, for one. I think there are probably others who do too. Why can't it be both? Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? I think it's good that some people…

> Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? Because then the cost of our electronic devices would skyrocket. iPhone 5: $2,500 (with two-year agreement). > I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade... That's nice, but it doesn't change who made your old Android.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

The cost would increase, but would it actually be that much? I don't know and I'm not qualified to guess. Should we not be concerned with working conditions just because it would increase the cost of the end products?

I'm not trying to make a big statement here about my choice to keep using an older phone. I am of course aware that this choice has no impact on who built it. I don't see what's wrong with reducing consumption a little bit and giving a little thought to these issues. That's all I meant to say with my original comment.

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