The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#11

Post by ryandvm » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 3:23 PM UTC

chhhrislake wrote: post #3

the big question for me is how far down the pipeline does steve's vision extend. i think his passing won't affect the care and quality for maybe the next 2 years but after that i'm worried.

People like to say that Apple will be fine in the post-Job era, while simultaneously paying him credit as one of the most amazing CEOs in history. But I find this an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance.

Either Steve was the key to Apple's top-notch products and meteoric rise, in which case Apple has lost their magic; or he wasn't, in which case Apple will be fine. It really can't be both ways.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#12

Post by javert » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 3:36 PM UTC

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares?

If people are being forced to work there by the government, then U.S. and European governments need to decide if they're willing to allow trade with a government that uses slave labor. (I highly doubt people are being forced to work there, though.)

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#13

Post by javert » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 3:39 PM UTC

“There are no alternatives in our ecosystem,” Mr. Daisey pointed out, noting that FoxConn makes more than half the electronics purchased by Americans each year.

Does anyone have a citation for that? That's hard to believe.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#14

Post by ktrgardiner » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 3:41 PM UTC

pat2man wrote: post #8

I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourced manual labor. While he addresses he problems that are caused to Chinese workers it doesn't in any way address the fact that Chinese workers are joining companies like Fox Con every day in order to get themselves away from an even worse life. I encourage eve…

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from.

Thinking and talking about the situation in terms of our lives sensationalizes more than it informs.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#15

Post by incremental » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 4:04 PM UTC

ryandvm wrote: post #11

chhhrislake wrote: post #3

the big question for me is how far down the pipeline does steve's vision extend. i think his passing won't affect the care and quality for maybe the next 2 years but after that i'm worried.

People like to say that Apple will be fine in the post-Job era, while simultaneously paying him credit as one of the most amazing CEOs in history. But I find this an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance. Either Steve was the key to Apple's top-notch products and meteoric rise, in which case Apple has lost their magic; or he wasn't, in which case Apple will be fine. It really can't be both ways.

It can. As CEO, one of his responsibilities was to create an organisation that would endure. Apple itself may be Steve Job's greatest creation. The test of the next 10 years is to see if that is true.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#16

Post by micah63 » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 4:10 PM UTC

All Apple had to do to be different was to have their own factory in China (as opposed to contracting FoxConn), use the cheaper workforce, and treat the employees better. Blind outsourcing is the culprit here I believe.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#17

Post by coob » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 4:31 PM UTC

ktrgardiner wrote: post #14

pat2man wrote: post #8

I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourced manual labor. While he addresses he problems that are caused to Chinese workers it doesn't in any way address the fact that Chinese workers are joining companies like Fox Con every day in order to get themselves away from an even worse life. I encourage eve…

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away fr…

I wonder what people slamming Foxconn think of the fact that all US military helmets are made by prison slave labour in the US.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#18

Post by spacemanaki » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 4:33 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #12

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? If people are being forced to work there by the government, then U.S. and European governments need to decide if they're willing to allow trade with a government that uses slave labor. (I highly doubt people are being forced to work there, though.)

> If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares?

Well I care, for one. I think there are probably others who do too.

Why can't it be both? Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions?

I think it's good that some people are concerned about the supply chain for our electronic toys. I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade to some new Android phone or the new iPhone... and that's partly motivated by these extra costs attached to the toys.

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#19

Post by jtbigwoo » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 4:51 PM UTC

ktrgardiner wrote: post #14

pat2man wrote: post #8

I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourced manual labor. While he addresses he problems that are caused to Chinese workers it doesn't in any way address the fact that Chinese workers are joining companies like Fox Con every day in order to get themselves away from an even worse life. I encourage eve…

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away fr…

And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from.

If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right?

The real problem here is that there's no recourse in our current economy. China makes well over half the electronics we buy so it's not like a boycott of Apple would necessarily help.

I see two approaches that could help. We can appeal to the humanity of CEOs, boards, and investors and try to press them to enact change. Or we can use their vanity by embarrassing them with productions like "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs."

Re: The Agony and The Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

#20

Post by chugger » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 4:53 PM UTC

pat2man wrote: post #8

I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourced manual labor. While he addresses he problems that are caused to Chinese workers it doesn't in any way address the fact that Chinese workers are joining companies like Fox Con every day in order to get themselves away from an even worse life. I encourage eve…

Let's call this article what it is. This article is just shameless self promotion by an obese man with nothing to do. its disgusting that he had to single out Apple and Steve Jobs to get media attention, when Motorola/Samsung/Sony/HP/Dell/Cisco/etc. does the same thing.