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Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

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Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#31
post #17

So the working class has been taken to the slaughterhouse? My billion dollar question: What happened at the end of the 70's / beginning of the 80's?

End of the postwar boom? Following WWII the US dollar became the world's reserve currency, this created a situation of constant demand for USD. The raised the value of the US dollar and made resources cheap for the US. (It's also allowed us to abuse the currency quite a bit. This will not last.) Demographic changes which had been happening for years continued: in 1945 16% of the total labor force worked in agricultur…

This is the fundamental problem with macro economics. there is no way to isolate variables. So obviously saying it is 100% attributable to Reagan is probably not true.

but also (to take some of your points) global competition would effect firms profit margin and theoretically depress income growth. but it does not necessarily explain why income growth shifted away from the middle classes. the issue is more about growth distribution than the presence of growth.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#32
post #7
post #2

Is anyone able to explain this chart for me? When they say that the 'Top Fifth' are all of the people in the labor force making over USD112541, does that mean that 20% of American workers make more than that? That's pretty astounding to me, if it is indeed the case. At a labor force size of about 154 million people, that means that over 30 million people are making over USD112541. I know that a good number of people…

These are household income quantiles, not personal income quantiles. It's not stated on the chart, but that lines up better with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_...

Furthermore, running $1 trillion deficits helps.

$1 trillion / 153 million workforce = ~$6500 / worker = $13,000 per household

It's not too hard to imagine that somehow this money tends to flow moreso towards people in the upper quintile (straight wage-earners would miss out, whereas the investing class has many avenues to receive it), so it wouldn't surprise me at all that 1 household could end up with their "share" plus that of 2 others, so: $13,000 * 3 = $39,000 household income based on govt deficit spending $112,541 - $39,000 = $73,500 household, /2 = 36,500 per person in "real", non-deficit enhanced earnings required to make the top quintile.

Made up entirely, but I don't think it is an unrealistic scenario at all. The enormous deficits we are now running can go a long way in hiding the truth for a very long time. Meanwhile, the debt grows and grows, and the interest on that debt gets larger every year. I just don't see how debt is inconsequential, but the vast majority of people seem to act as if it is (at least those who are even aware of it).

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#33
Every time I see this kind of chart, I always wonder why the aggregate income distribution of a population is a metric that anyone ought to be concerned about.

What does one person's income have to do with anyone else's - why would you aggregate everyone's separate incomes into a single figure in the first place?

And if someone's particular income is insufficient to meet their needs, how do the aggregate population data help rectify that problem?

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#34

The primary problem with this type of comparison is that it completely ignores economic mobility. Someone simply isn't born into a given income bracket and stays there for life. Most people's earning potential goes up over time. Speaking for myself, I think I've been in all five quintiles.

You're arguing that an aristocracy is OK as long as they didn't get there through heredity.

First of all, I would disagree that social mobility is increasing. Rich kids are doing better than ever.

Secondly, I believe history indicates that hereditary aristocracies are actually less brutal and dangerous than "merit"-based ones. It is the revolutionary forces that destroy societies and kill tremendous amounts of people. People born into poverty who work their way to the top through a sociopathic drive for power and look down on everyone else with a blame-the-victim mentality.

These people are dangerous. And Hacker News is full of them.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#35

This analysis also ignores actual purchasing power (non-core inflation). Wages may have stagnated, but purchasing power for non-core goods has soared. Free trade is a powerful cause of both wage stagnation and purchasing power. Sure, eliminate free trade and the working class will see wages go up; but they'll spend those wages on $4000 plasma TVs and $50,000 economy cars.

People making your argument always mention TVs, they never mention rent, land, food, education, childcare, or healthcare. 1. Rent 2. Land 3. Food 4. Education 5. Childcare 6. Healthcare You know, the stuff that actually matters. I'll give up my $400 LCD TV to be able to afford having my spouse stay home. No problem. I'll give up my Hyundai to be able to get a degree on the cheap like they did back in the 60s. I'll gi…

I'll give up 100% of my silicon-based technology if in exchange I can afford to own some land. Easy choice.

You can't possibly be serious. Why aren't you already in Nebraska, then? There's plenty of land in the United States, most of it dirt cheap (being dirt). If you're not already from the country, you probably don't know why we all left the country. (Myself included.)

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#36
Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers.

So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed.

There are probably several factors at work here, but as someone who was around and paying attention at the end of that period, I think the key to the answer is the large corporation. The period of flattening coincides with the heyday of the large corporation.

Large corporations tend to decrease economic inequality. You can't measure individual productivity well within large organizations, and even if you could, it would strain the fabric of the organization to reward people that way. They also hide a lot of inequality by giving elite employees benefits that don't show up in their salaries (http://paulgraham.com/ladder.html).

What happened at the end of the 1970s was that the most ambitious people started to lose interest in working their way up the corporate ladder. They wanted to get paid upfront. That was why the term "yuppie" was born then. Before 1980 it was rare to find young professionals with lots of money. In the old days, they were all still paying their dues at that age.

I remember the transition quite clearly. When I was a little kid, in the early 70s, the most impressive thing you could do was to work for a large corporation. It was the era of conglomerates in shiny office towers. By 1980 we were starting to see a glimpse of the world we now live in, where the ambitious people are all free agents.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#37
post #33

Every time I see this kind of chart, I always wonder why the aggregate income distribution of a population is a metric that anyone ought to be concerned about. What does one person's income have to do with anyone else's - why would you aggregate everyone's separate incomes into a single figure in the first place? And if someone's particular income is insufficient to meet their needs, how do the aggregate population d…

It's a pretty good indicator about the real impact of poverty in that society. If a lot of the wealth is concentrated, the people in the middle and bottom are very squeezed in terms of what society actually offers them (generally), whereas if the wealth is more evenly distributed, society tends to make sure everybody's getting along well, with health care and schools and what-not.

Of course, you can definitely throw the baby out with the bathwater on that one. If there's completely even income distribution, the only motivation you have to do any work is just because you like to work - and most people don't like to work much. And then people compensate with non-income power imbalance, usually, so things are still not equitable.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People making your argument always mention TVs, they never mention rent, land, food, education, childcare, or healthcare. 1. Rent 2. Land 3. Food 4. Education 5. Childcare 6. Healthcare You know, the stuff that actually matters. I'll give up my $400 LCD TV to be able to afford having my spouse stay home. No problem. I'll give up my Hyundai to be able to get a degree on the cheap like they did back in the 60s. I'll gi…

I'll give up 100% of my silicon-based technology if in exchange I can afford to own some land. Easy choice. You can't possibly be serious. Why aren't you already in Nebraska, then? There's plenty of land in the United States, most of it dirt cheap (being dirt). If you're not already from the country, you probably don't know why we all left the country. (Myself included.)

I'm not talking about any crappy dirt pile anywhere, I'm talking about owning my own place to live in a community where there are jobs and 1960s technology.

I could move to Nebraska but it is unlikely I could find a job that would afford me a residence.

This isn't about social norms, this is about whether the computer revolution has been worth it for the great majority of Americans.

A lot of Americans would kill right now for a job in steel or coal. And in 1960s America you didn't even need a high school diploma to own a house.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#39

I haven't seen it featured in a lot of US news agencies, but the economical situation is Israel might be insightful in comparison with the US. For the last couple of months Israelis are protesting about the economical situation around the country. The focus of those protests is the neo liberalist and capitalist direction the country took. You can search for #j14 on twitter. The protest demands among other things soci…

You know A+ is way below the credit rating the US was downgraded to (AA+), right?

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#40
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

Don't you think that the top tax bracket being slashed from over 70% to well below 50% had something to do with it as well?
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