Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#31

Post by cycomanic » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #5

Given the contents of this https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.Europ... I don't think you can really consider this as supporting FLOSS. They legit called Openstack "foreign' software.

The Andromeda project was about creating a local alternative to the largely US-dominated cloud space. Given that, the argument that it is counterproductive to push a project which is dominated by US and non-european companies (look at the foundation members) and where most development expertise is outside of Europe, does have some merit no?

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#32

Post by shadowfox » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #30

fanpx wrote: post #2

"Members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software." First of all, it is "a PhD", secondly, this looks like the typical scientific ecosystem power grab that we have seen multiple times in the US. In the Python scientific space, people doing actual work are exploited ruthlessly.

Reading the website this is for committee members only (it has nothing to do with if a project is eligible). This seems to largely be a requirement for tax reasons. As a side note, I find it unfortunate that often when things like this get posted, e.g. a foundation who supports free-software in this case, the first posts are not "this is a great thing", but instead someone goes through the website until they find som…

It is the "law of the topmost comment" [1] in action

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26357974

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#33

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

fermigier wrote: post #26

chrisseaton wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only. Yeah... but why? What attribute do you think is unique to people with PhDs?

I don't believe that people with PhDs have "unique attributes". There are, specially in the field of computing science, examples of exceptionally gifted and influential researchers without PhDs (e.g. Denis Ritchie, Simon Peyton-Jones...). What a Phd recognizes, and is relevant to the project at hand, is the ability "to produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge". (Per Wikipedia: "Because it is…

> There are, specially in the field of computing science, examples of exceptionally gifted and influential researchers without PhDs

If you know this, and know that people without one can still produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge (even giving your own examples) then why do you require one?

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#34

Post by JoshTriplett » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #31

jpgvm wrote: post #5

Given the contents of this https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.Europ... I don't think you can really consider this as supporting FLOSS. They legit called Openstack "foreign' software.

The Andromeda project was about creating a local alternative to the largely US-dominated cloud space. Given that, the argument that it is counterproductive to push a project which is dominated by US and non-european companies (look at the foundation members) and where most development expertise is outside of Europe, does have some merit no?

Open Source can be hosted anywhere, as many people who have written software later hosted as a cloud service by Amazon have discovered. I don't think there's any merit to rejecting an Open Source project on the basis of where its primary developers are located.

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#35

Post by diskzero » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

fanpx wrote: post #2

"Members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software." First of all, it is "a PhD", secondly, this looks like the typical scientific ecosystem power grab that we have seen multiple times in the US. In the Python scientific space, people doing actual work are exploited ruthlessly.

This seems to be an unfortunate manifestation of French tax law and culture. This comes off as offensive to those of us who came up through, what we may believe, the more egalitarian, Silicon Valley entrepreneurship model. A PhD may actually be seen as a liability!

It also is grating, as many open source coders and maintainers choose to operate outside of both the academic and Silicon Valley cultures. Why would they want a committee of academics guiding and funding their projects?

All this being said, perhaps there will be positive outcomes from this fund.

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#36

Post by fermigier » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #33

fermigier wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that people with PhDs have "unique attributes". There are, specially in the field of computing science, examples of exceptionally gifted and influential researchers without PhDs (e.g. Denis Ritchie, Simon Peyton-Jones...). What a Phd recognizes, and is relevant to the project at hand, is the ability "to produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge". (Per Wikipedia: "Because it is…

> There are, specially in the field of computing science, examples of exceptionally gifted and influential researchers without PhDs If you know this, and know that people without one can still produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge (even giving your own examples) then why do you require one?

As stated elsewhere, this helps establish the credibility of the selection process in the eyes of the French fiscal administration, which, ultimately, is the biggest funder of the FDL (through various tax incentives).

Moreover, as it is a voluntary function, no one is harmed financially by this constraint.

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#37

Post by abn1022 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

jabl wrote: post #20

gntyo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simon Peyton Jones would not qualify (though he has an honorary doctorate now). In OSS scientific software, many PhDs have management jobs, where they write a couple of grand sounding fantasy roadmaps and have creative people who report to them. Printing money basically.

If you're in Academia for the money you're an imbecile. Which would sort of disqualify you for said academic work in the first place. Catch 22.

The jobs are not in academia.

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#38

Post by andrewl » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

fanpx wrote: post #2

"Members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software." First of all, it is "a PhD", secondly, this looks like the typical scientific ecosystem power grab that we have seen multiple times in the US. In the Python scientific space, people doing actual work are exploited ruthlessly.

Regarding the “an PhD” note, I’m finding other phrasing that makes me think the writers were not native English speakers. It’s a French organization after all, so I would expect a few errors in their English. They're not significant.

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#39

Post by nomdep » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

“ Aside from supporting Free Software solutions, the FDL also aims to increase the visibility of European Free Software publishers and their importance in terms of innovation and employment as well as their contribution to a possible European technological sovereignty.”

So is for European projects only?

Re: Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

#40

Post by jpgvm » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #31

jpgvm wrote: post #5

Given the contents of this https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.Europ... I don't think you can really consider this as supporting FLOSS. They legit called Openstack "foreign' software.

The Andromeda project was about creating a local alternative to the largely US-dominated cloud space. Given that, the argument that it is counterproductive to push a project which is dominated by US and non-european companies (look at the foundation members) and where most development expertise is outside of Europe, does have some merit no?

True open source software is like ideas, it doesn't have borders and people that try tell you it does are ignorant at best or have ulterior motives.

In this case it's not even true. The commercial entities that play a big role in OpenStack are incorporated in the US but many of the engineers that do the actual work are located in the EU and available for hire in the EU talent pool.