Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The First Soviet in Ireland

historytoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 48 posts

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#31

Post by UncleOxidant »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #18
jackpirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

> In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR

Not sure that was true. Europe was pretty busy with the aftermath of WWI (and to a large extent, Germany supported Lenin getting back into Russia in the hopes that he would instigate a revolution there that would take Russia out of the war). US had supported Kerensky's government, was anti-Bolshevik and withheld diplomatic recognition until 1933, but was hardly "at war" with the USSR.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#32

Post by [deleted] »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

[deleted]

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#33

Post by duxup »

I think a lot of political things we sort of fall into based on a handful if desires, needs, gripes and other things ... and it's less an embracing of all things that ideology as much as a few things that at the time we feel strongly about and there it is, an ideology or political figure, or something that seems to speak to it.

If we agree with or even want most of what they offer, may or may not be the case.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#34

Post by boomboomsubban »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #31
boomboomsubban wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

> In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR Not sure that was true. Europe was pretty busy with the aftermath of WWI (and to a large extent, Germany supported Lenin getting back into Russia in the hopes that he would instigate a revolution there that would take Russia out of the war). US had supported Kerensky's government, was anti-Bolshevik and withheld diplomatic recognition until 1933, but was…

>and to a large extend, Germany supported Lenin getting back into Russia in the hopes that he would instigate a revolution there that would take Russia out of the war

That German Empire fell after WWI, and was replaced by the Weimar Republic which itself did little against the Reds itself but a large assortment of now unemployed German soldiers did join the fight.

The Allied Powers on the other hand, formally supported the White's and launched invasions into Russia. No matter how active they actually were in the war, the hostility would have prevented any Soviet interference in Ireland.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#35

Post by fsagx »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #31
boomboomsubban wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

> In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR Not sure that was true. Europe was pretty busy with the aftermath of WWI (and to a large extent, Germany supported Lenin getting back into Russia in the hopes that he would instigate a revolution there that would take Russia out of the war). US had supported Kerensky's government, was anti-Bolshevik and withheld diplomatic recognition until 1933, but was…

Surely, it must have seemed so to the Soviets. Allied forces landed in many locations and the Czechs occupied a long strip through the middle. Wiki gives these numbers:

1,500 French and British troops originally landed in Arkhangelsk 14,378 British troops in North Russia 1,800 British troops in Siberia 50,000 Romanian troops belonging to the 6th Romanian Corps under General Ioan Istrate, in Bessarabia. 23,351 Greeks, who withdrew after three months (part of I Army Corps under Maj. Gen. Konstantinos Nider, comprising 2nd and 13th Infantry Divisions, in the Crimea, and around Odessa and Kherson) 15,000 French also in the Southern Russia Intervention 40,000 British troops in the Caucasus region by January 1919 13,000 Americans (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions) 11,500 Estonians in northwestern Russia 2,500 Italians in the Arkhangelsk region and Siberia 1,300 Italians in the Murmansk region. 150 Australians (mostly in the Arkhangelsk regions) 950 British troops in Trans-Caspia 70,000+ Japanese soldiers in the Eastern region 4,192 Canadians in Siberia, 600 Canadians in Arkhangelsk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Rus...

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#36

Post by cat199 »

rmchugh wrote: post #30
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

It's nonsensical in my opinion. There is no reference to relations between the "Soviet" and Soviet Russia. The only connection is the name.

according to 5 minutes of wikipedia research:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Soviet

    On Friday 11 April a meeting of the United Trades and Labour Council,
    to which Byrne had been a delegate, took place. At that meeting Irish
    Transport and General Workers' Union (ITGWU) representative Sean
    Dowling proposed that the trade unions take over Town Hall and have
    meetings there, but the proposal was not voted on.[5] On Saturday 12
    April the ITGWU workers in the Cleeve's factory in Lansdowne voted
    to go on strike. On Sunday 13 April, after a twelve-hour discussion
    and lobbying of the delegates by workers, a general strike was called
    by the city's United Trades and Labour Council.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Transport_and_General_Wo...

    The union was founded by James Larkin in January 1909 as a general
    union.[1][2] Initially drawing its membership from branches of the
    Liverpool-based National Union of Dock Labourers, from which Larkin had
    been expelled, it grew to include workers in a range of industries. The
    ITGWU logo was the Red Hand of Ulster, which is synonymous with ancient
    Gaelic Ulster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Larkin

    James Larkin (28 January 1874 – 30 January 1947), sometimes known as Jim
    Larkin, was an Irish republican, socialist and trade union leader. He was
    one of the founders of the Irish Labour Party along with James Connolly
    and William O'Brien, and later the founder of the Irish Worker League
    (a communist party which was recognised by the Comintern as the Irish
    section of the world communist movement), as well as the Irish Transport
    and General Workers' Union (ITGWU) and the Workers' Union of Ireland
    (the two unions later merged to become SIPTU, Ireland's largest trade
    union). Along with Connolly and Jack White, he was also a founder of the
    Irish Citizen Army (ICA; a paramilitary group which was integral to both
    the Dublin lock-out and the Easter Rising). Larkin was a leading figure
    in the Syndicalist movement.[3]
So a strike instigated by a union founded by syndicalist who also founded revolutionary unions endorsed by the cominform, who was yet to pivot to the NEP and still advocating global union based insurrection to trigger socialist revolution.

Doesn't mean the proto-SU planned this activity particularly, but claiming 'no connection' when people involved were part of global revolutionary activity directly connected to groups descending from the internationale and associated with the cominform is also just as tenuous if not moreso.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#37

Post by gusfoo »

jackpirate wrote: post #9
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

> Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets.

They were (the Cubans) passionate believers in the cause. A lot of cold-war accounts from the other side of the Iron Curtain mention how their passion was unmatched in the SSR countries.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#38

Post by rurai »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #26
s_dev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall an anecdote about 1916 Easter Rising leaders traveling to Russia to gain military support but were refuted on the grounds that "because they hadn't killed the Bishops" they weren't serious about a Revolution.

That anecdote doesn't make sense. The Easter Rising was a fairly short ordeal, Tsarist Russia never would have provided military support to an allies insurrection, and the internal Russian revolutionaries had very little support to offer.

It was the IRA in 1925 reaching out to the Soviets for monetary support to continue on an armed struggle

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#39

Post by rurai »

rmchugh wrote: post #30
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

It's nonsensical in my opinion. There is no reference to relations between the "Soviet" and Soviet Russia. The only connection is the name.

Soviet, here, just means a "workers council" rather than the bureaucratic state the term is usually associated with

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#40

Post by smcl »

kencausey wrote: post #23
smcl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and to be honest even the UK (shitty as we were to Ireland throughout history) didn't have a complete economic blockade of Ireland during its early years, like the USA did on Cuba.

The blockade did not predate Soviet involvement in Cuba.

I didn't say it did? Remember, we're discussing why Cuba ended up so closely allied to the Soviet Union - not what started everything. If you really want to pull that thread the "Soviet involvement" in Cuba started after the revolution when the US rebuffed Castro's attempts to reach out and meet with Eisenhower. There were of course many contributing factors that caused Cuba and the USSR to end up so close, but I think it's safe to say the ongoing blockade set everything in stone and all but guaranteed it until the latter's collapse (barring a brief period where JFK appeared to favour rapproachement with Cuba before his assassination).
Post reply on HN