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The First Soviet in Ireland

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Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#21

Post by s_dev »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #18
jackpirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

I recall an anecdote about 1916 Easter Rising leaders traveling to Russia to gain military support but were refuted on the grounds that "because they hadn't killed the Bishops" they weren't serious about a Revolution.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#22

Post by smcl »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #19
jackpirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

Desperation for Cuba. Cuba had terrible relations with everyone except the Soviet Union. Ireland had good relations with everyone except the UK. In particular the US was supportive of Ireland.

Yep, and to be honest even the UK (shitty as we were to Ireland throughout history) didn't have a complete economic blockade of Ireland during its early years, like the USA did on Cuba.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#23

Post by kencausey »

smcl wrote: post #22
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desperation for Cuba. Cuba had terrible relations with everyone except the Soviet Union. Ireland had good relations with everyone except the UK. In particular the US was supportive of Ireland.

Yep, and to be honest even the UK (shitty as we were to Ireland throughout history) didn't have a complete economic blockade of Ireland during its early years, like the USA did on Cuba.

The blockade did not predate Soviet involvement in Cuba.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#24

Post by dmurray »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #18
jackpirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

Agreed. The Easter Rising, and the cause of Irish nationalism generally, weren't anywhere near as linked to Catholicism as this article makes out. It's much more correct to see it as a class struggle or a revolution against a colonial power, depending on your view (the ruling class were closely linked to Britain).

Prominent 1916-era nationalists like Childers and Markievicz were Protestants. Connolly was a hardcore socialist who would have embraced Marxist atheism. The Church didn't generally support the Rising, partly because it feared socialism. The Proclamation of the Irish Republic doesn't mention the Church, or even, remarkably for the era, God. Most importantly, perhaps, the Penal laws suppressing the practice of Catholicism were just a memory at that stage. Irish people were oppressed because they were Irish, not because they were Catholic.

I don't want to completely discount the link between Catholic and Irish identity - fostered by Pearse and then de Valera among others. But to emphasize it here smacks of an understanding of Ireland that comes mainly from late-20th-century international news and conflict in the North 'between Catholics and Protestants'.

Edit: I'm less familiar with the Russian revolutions, but my layman's understanding is that the class struggle was more important there too than imposing atheism. In Russia, the Church was part of the dominant power structure that had to be deposed: in Ireland it wasn't. It's not so hard then to align the movements.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#25

Post by rurai »

smcl wrote: post #22
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desperation for Cuba. Cuba had terrible relations with everyone except the Soviet Union. Ireland had good relations with everyone except the UK. In particular the US was supportive of Ireland.

Yep, and to be honest even the UK (shitty as we were to Ireland throughout history) didn't have a complete economic blockade of Ireland during its early years, like the USA did on Cuba.

There was no economic "blockade" until 1932, after the Irish government refused to pay land annuities to the British government and a rise of protectionist policies.

In reality the reason Ireland didn't face any sanctions immediately after "independence" was because it was mostly token independence where the economy was still heavily intertwined with Britain and little industrial development took place. This was maintained between 1923 and 1932 as the status quo benefitted the large ranchers and middlemen whose side won the civil war.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#26

Post by boomboomsubban »

s_dev wrote: post #21
boomboomsubban wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

I recall an anecdote about 1916 Easter Rising leaders traveling to Russia to gain military support but were refuted on the grounds that "because they hadn't killed the Bishops" they weren't serious about a Revolution.

That anecdote doesn't make sense. The Easter Rising was a fairly short ordeal, Tsarist Russia never would have provided military support to an allies insurrection, and the internal Russian revolutionaries had very little support to offer.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#27

Post by salemh »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #18
jackpirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between Ireland and Cuba? Both are small countries dominated by a nearby power and both are highly Catholic. Yet somehow Cuba managed to make it work with the Soviets. It's true there's differences between the countries (Cuba wasn't quite as Catholic as Ireland), but I don't see how TFA's comment is a forgone conclusion the way you do.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

>never that successful at embracing atheism The USSR certainly tried however, to tune of millions dead and created its own religion with the veneration of Lenin and Stalin as cults of personality.

For those interested, here is a timeline of that period compiled by the Russia Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (those fleeing persecution).

https://www.rocorstudies.org/2019/10/25/timeline-of-the-orth... In 1917, there were 51,450 Orthodox Churches. 20 years later, only 500 were left. In 1917, one month after taking power, the Bolsheviks: declared all land to be controlled by their committees, including church property, all education institutions were handed to the state, all financial aid severed to religious institutions was severed, and separation of school and church and state and church was declared. * 100's of thousands mass executed during the Red Terror

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#28

Post by ploika »

It wasn't a Soviet but the 1913 Dublin Lockout probably deserves a mention too. It was a bitter dispute that involved about 15,000 workers and lasted around 5 months. It's arguably the most significant industrial dispute in Irish history, and many of the speakers mentioned in the poster in the article would have taken part in it.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#29

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

dmurray wrote: post #24
boomboomsubban wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1919 essentially the entire world was at war with the USSR, they couldn't provide Ireland meaningful support. By 59 they were stable and able to work with other countries. Plus, the USSR was never that successful at embracing atheism, which should be obvious as thr Russian Orthodox church remains a strong force. Around 1920 was the about the most hostile period to religion. Making this about religion seems forced…

Agreed. The Easter Rising, and the cause of Irish nationalism generally, weren't anywhere near as linked to Catholicism as this article makes out. It's much more correct to see it as a class struggle or a revolution against a colonial power, depending on your view (the ruling class were closely linked to Britain). Prominent 1916-era nationalists like Childers and Markievicz were Protestants. Connolly was a hardcore s…

I think we need to decide if we're talking about a communist revolution resulting from the turmoil engendered by the Easter Rising/Irish War of Independence/Irish Civil War, or imagining the later 1920s Irish Free State succumbing to a communist revolution, since I was sort of assuming the latter in this thread.

Re: The First Soviet in Ireland

#30

Post by rmchugh »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #8

In retrospect, the brief Irish flirtation with the Soviet Union seems both inevitable and doomed. A small state trying to establish itself must look for potential allies wherever it can; but the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nationalist Ireland and the forcibly atheist internationalist USSR were not lasting partners. Quite the understatement here.

It's nonsensical in my opinion. There is no reference to relations between the "Soviet" and Soviet Russia. The only connection is the name.
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