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Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

cato-at-liberty.org

31–40 of 241 posts

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#31
As the father of a near 3 year old the educational questions weigh heavily on my mind. While this is a great thought experiment ("How could we make it better?") it's scary when given a concrete example that is near and dear to your heart.

I believe:

[1] Each general subject has a core competency that you have to achieve at a minimum.

It's broken into skills and subjects.

Skills includes: programming, reading, writing, functional mathematics (+-*/ and solving word problems), learning (figuring out how the pupil best learns for themselves, or if you want "meta-learning"). I may be missing some skills here.

Subjects include: english, history, biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics (both higher level functional math and theory / proofs). I may be missing some subjects here.

[2] on top of #1 you have focused subjects of interest which you should support the pupil learning to whatever depth they are interested in learning. Most people I know upon finding something they are truly interested in become a borderline expert. Are they world class? Maybe or maybe not, but they are certainly journeymen. These range everywhere from finance to car repair to engineering to language learning to musical instruments to basically anything people take an interest in.

If your student can reach functional usage in all parts of #1 earlier that gives them more time to learn different things from #2. Note that the skills and background knowledge learned in #1 are reusable to various subjects in #2.

Circling back to the article: It's a stupid idea to even attempt to prevent a student from mastering anything in #1 above faster. It might help if the peer group instead of being defined by age could be defined by what your interests in #2 are. Then you get cross pollination of students by more advanced students in those same interesting subjects.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#32
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read somewhere that Khan is intending on starting a private school where all ages will share classrooms.

Would be very interested if you could find a link (had brief unsuccessful look myself)

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/07/ff_khan/all/1

the very end is about a proposed private school

"For his part, Khan says he’s now considering starting his own private school, as a way to see just how much you could wrap learning around Khan Academy. His ideas are intriguing: Among other things, his school wouldn’t divide kids by age; teenagers would mix in with kindergartners. “I have no research to back this up,” he says, “but younger kids act more mature around older kids, and older kids act more mature around younger kids.” If the classrooms were fully flipped, students could spend more of the school day doing creative activities. He’d use board games to teach negotiation, and he’d teach history backward. (“Why are the Israelis and Palestinians pissed at each other? Let’s go back a couple of years. Wait—they were pissed at each other even then! So you go back even further …”) He also thinks he’d teach kids subjects that have more real-world applicability—like “statistics, law, accounting, and finance. Why are you teaching people civics? Teach them law. That’s more relevant, and you learn civics at the same time.” He calculates that it would cost only $10,000 per child, “affordable for professional couples out here.”"

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#33
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably the biggest libertarian you'd meet (that doesn't live in his or her mom's basement) and I feel like HN is pretty friendly to my thinking.

Maybe he means the guidelines: "off-topic: most articles about politics". Anything from Cato is going to be politics.

How is any article about public schooling not going to be about politics? The public school system is inherently political by definition.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#34
post #26

I like the US college system. In each track, you move along at the appropriate speed and levels.

That's not how it worked at my university. I had some choice as far as what order I could take classes in, but everything still worked at the same pace no matter what.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#35
How did this article hit the front page? What is insightful or interesting about it?

"This attitude is a natural outgrowth of our decision to operate education as a monopoly."

This is blatantly not true, in the US we do not operate education as a monopoly. There are plenty of private schools.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#36
post #12

It doesn't surprise me at all. The incentives are all wrong. Teachers are incentivized to push students to the next grade with as little fuss as possible. They aren't ever asked to help kids improve themselves... Only to make sure they learned the minimum required knowledge. That teachers would ask that students be kept ignorant just to make their job easier does not surprise me a bit. To be clear, not all teachers a…

So, if you had quite a few good teachers, and only a few bad ones, doesn't that entirely invalidate your first 2 paragraphs? I know that anecdote ramblings, right?

"So, if you had quite a few good teachers, and only a few bad ones, doesn't that entirely invalidate your first 2 paragraphs?"

Not at all. I would have to assume he is describing the current state of education as he sees it and not his direct experience with education from whenever he was previously in school. It is perfectly fine for him to say that, in his opinion, there are fewer good teachers today than there were yesterday.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#37

I suppose it's a Cato blog post, but I was hoping for a more interesting discussion than just a random call for private education, with a market-will-solve it assertion. People learning at different paces and on their own is a fairly interesting problem highlighted here, but I think it's wishful thinking to claim that the perfect answer is already known. It's not entirely clear to me that private schools would cater…

At the college level, private schools certainly do cater to the individual. I was fast in math, regular speed in everything else. They put me into grad level math and physics classes, while my writing/history/etc classes were still at the normal pace.

I don't see much reason why the incentives would be different below the college level.

Whenever you want to ask "what would a privatized primary education system do", you can often ask instead "what does the privatized secondary education system currently do?"

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#38
post #36
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you had quite a few good teachers, and only a few bad ones, doesn't that entirely invalidate your first 2 paragraphs? I know that anecdote ramblings, right?

"So, if you had quite a few good teachers, and only a few bad ones, doesn't that entirely invalidate your first 2 paragraphs?" Not at all. I would have to assume he is describing the current state of education as he sees it and not his direct experience with education from whenever he was previously in school. It is perfectly fine for him to say that, in his opinion, there are fewer good teachers today than there wer…

It's not perfectly fine without evidence, it's just unsupported rambling about how things are going to hell, in direct contradiction of what little anecdotal evidence he has, in order to prop up an ideologically favored argument.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#39
post #14

If you ran a school with complete authority, how would you handle these cases? (I don't mean that rhetorically; I'm curious to see some hacker brainstorming.)

Well, I'd allow students the option to take the final exam once per semester at any time. Those that pass at 90% would be transferred to a mixed-grade same-subject classroom for that period where they could study at their own pace.

I'd start with Khan Academy math, since they've got pretty good tools for supervising students learning at different rates, and the math track is pretty thorough for someone in K-12.

Since the students are self-selected, I wouldn't expect significant discipline problems, and since each mixed-grade classroom focuses on a specific subject there exists the possibility for easier collaboration.

I think this model would stand a greater chance of success in middle- or high schools where students have a class schedule. I don't think it would be practical in very small schools; however, I would expect that very small schools already have their own ways of handling students learning at different rates for budgeting reasons.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#40
post #35

How did this article hit the front page? What is insightful or interesting about it? "This attitude is a natural outgrowth of our decision to operate education as a monopoly." This is blatantly not true, in the US we do not operate education as a monopoly. There are plenty of private schools.

True, plenty of private schools, but it depends on your definition of monopoly. Microsoft had competition but that didn't stop the lawsuits from the Feds.

Government education may not be a monopoly in appearance but in many cases it sure does behave as one. Look up the examples of local government education bureaucracies doing much to attempt to eliminate those private schools as competition.

Washingto D.C. is an excellent example of this.

In many areas I would define government education as a monopoly simply because they do everything they can to prevent you from not entering your child into their system. And they use government force to do so.

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