Why My Father Hated India • Hacker News Board

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#31

Post by microarchitect » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:17 AM UTC

null_para wrote: post #19

qasar wrote: post #15

Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship…

Minority in Hindu majority ruinous? Our last president was not Hindu. By the way, He is one of the most celebrated intellectual in India. Some of the most popular actors/actresses in Bollywood are not Hindu. People like Azim Premji are not Hindu. I can cite many more such examples. I have bunch of my friends who are not Hindus and asked about situation like partition once again, they always say they will choose India…

Just to add this, I'd like to point out that the OP fails to consider the fate of the Mohajirs in Pakistan. It doesn't seem like migrating to Pakistan from India worked out all that well for them.

There is no doubt that Muslims in India lag behind on developmental metrics, but I sincerely doubt this is due to any large-scale systematic discrimination against them. Sure, there is a fair bit of casual "micro-discrimination" against Muslims but that happens to a LOT of demographic groups in a huge and diverse country like India.

This might be an unpopular and politically incorrect view, but I believe that the thing that is holding back Indian Muslims and (perhaps Muslims elsewhere) is their religion. Believing that women shouldn't step out of the house alone, or that women should wear a burqa all the time or that several important formative years of a child's life should be spent studying the Quran or an insistence on studying Arabic and Urdu instead of the local language are IMHO not conducive to succeeding in a cut-throat capitalist economy. My unscientific survey of successful Muslims that I know leads me to believe that the most successful ones are not that religious.

However, the OP makes a good point that Hindu fundamentalism might be polarizing opinions in the country. Unfortunately, you can get away with being a Hindu fundamentalist in India, but being a Muslim fundamentalist mostly leads to career suicide.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#32

Post by skbohra123 » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:19 AM UTC

qasar wrote: post #15

Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship…

Most of the successful film stars in India are muslim. Dilip Kumar, Madhubala, Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan, Javed Akthar, and the list is long. Bollywood represents India in most of the world and Bollywood is dominated by Muslims. Something to think about.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#33

Post by wisty » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:23 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #25

aniket_ray wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you cite something about your assertion that Indian Muslims have had a raw deal? I have only one data point Azim Premji, who is one of the richest Indians and is a Muslim. I've heard that in some rural areas, banks do give loans on religious lines i.e. Banks in some muslim predominant areas only give loans to muslims and in some Hindu predominant areas to only hindus. Though I heard that the government is tryin…

I'm just a visitor here, but I can believe that Indian Muslims may have a raw deal in some areas. In professional Mumbai or Delhi society, no one seems to care much. You are a banker, a lawyer or a programmer. For the most part, you get your job or start your business via your own professional connections. Personal and professional life is separated very much like it is in the west. Outside of this fairly narrow circ…

Not always. I saw some long article about how outsiders can do better, when you need to be tough. Jews in Europe could lend money, and they would be able to put on their "bankers hat" much easier when they needed to collect debts. There were anecdotes of Chinese-Malays, who would wear Malay clothes when socializing, and traditional Chinese clothes when they were collecting debts; so that their debtors knew not to expect any sympathy.

A well-cultivated network might be valuable, but most people's extended social networks have a lot of deadwood.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#34

Post by drats » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:24 AM UTC

jkic47 wrote: post #9

The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that is essentially at a stalemate.

It's worth noting the Taj Mahal and other Mughal architecture is not just Islamic though.[1]

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_architecture

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#35

Post by ammarkalim » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:40 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #30

Zarar wrote: post #29

The author had daddy issues. BTW, what is this article even doing on HN? My take: Kashmir == root cause. Fix that first, grant independence.

People don't question 2 or 3 China articles a day. It's refreshing to see something written about another big developing country or (in this case, two).

hahah....daddy issues...FTW!!!

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#36

Post by 4J7z0Fgt63dTZbs » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:14 AM UTC

kloncks wrote: post #23

jkic47 wrote: post #9

The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that is essentially at a stalemate.

Absolutely agree. Too many conflicts come from sides that focus on their few differences rather than their many similarities. This is coming from an Egyptian who realizes that Israelis (and Jews) aren't so different from my Arab Muslim self. Now, if only more people agreed.

They are agitated by the difference not because it's vast and deterring, but it's subtle, persistent and it slaps them in their face when they let their guards down.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#37

Post by braindead_in » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:20 AM UTC

qasar wrote: post #15

Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship…

To know why Indian Muslims have been left out you have to go into the colonial history of India. It all started with the 1857 rebellion, The Sepoy Mutiny. The rebellion was primarily started by the Muslims soldiers with support from Hindus. After the rebellion was quelled the Britishers ostracized the Muslims and the Hindus were given preferential treatment. All the best Civil Service jobs, the licenses, etc. went to Hindus. Hindus had better access to education compared to Muslims. After independence the bureaucracy continued this discrimination. (As an aside, this was one of the reasons why Muslims flourished in Arts; Bollywood being a good example).

The trend however has largely been reversed because of vote bank politics. The political parties today are trying to woo the Muslims (and Dalits) as best as they can. The ruling political party, Congress is viewed as pro-Muslim. The Economic liberalization has also opened up the possibilities for Indian Muslims. The corporations do not discriminate when it comes to a customer. Indian Muslims have the same access to loans and credit as the Hindus (and all other religious groups). Schools don't care about religion as long as somebody can cover the tuition fees. As an anecdote, in Bangalore majority of auto-rickshaw (three wheeler transport) drivers are uneducated Muslims. But their kids all go to English medium schools, not Madrassas.

Rural India however is still divided along communal and caste lines. Caste and religion play a huge social and economic part of the rural fabric and change there is slow. But the Muslims there are as discriminated against as the Dalits, if not more.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#38

Post by g123g » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:34 AM UTC

Very good and balanced article overall. The hatred of each other has become so deep rooted in both the countries and the mutual suspicion so strong that it is too late that the relationship can be changed. But we still owe it our next generation to work towards peace so that the wealth that belongs to them does not get spent in keeping up the needless hostility. We cannot let the past ruin the lives of the poorest people in the world who live in this region. It is time for the Pakistani people to call a spade a spade. They cannot take refuge anymore in the filmsy excuses and their needless obsession with Kashmir anymore. If they don't do anything now and continue to behave as they have done till now for the last 60 years, it will be too late. Pakistan as a nation is literally on its last breath and it needs an immediate shock treatment by its own people if it wants to survive. India will continue to grow and survive but it is Pakistan whose survival at stake. If Pakistani people continue to behave like ostriches with their heads in sand, then they will have only themselves to blame and not any of their make believe enemies like US or India.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#39

Post by yxhuvud » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:38 AM UTC

jkic47 wrote: post #9

The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that is essentially at a stalemate.

Part of the Indus valley is in India as well.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#40

Post by ajays » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 8:03 AM UTC

qasar wrote: post #15

Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship…

I am sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with the assertion that Indian Muslims have suffered under "majority" rule.

First of all: 3 of the first 11 presidents in India were Muslim. Muslims continue to do well in many spheres of life: all of the top Bollywood actors are Muslim. At one time, the richest Indian was a Muslim (he's come down a few notches because of the Ambani brothers), and he rose up through entrepreneurship and hard work.

I believe this fabrication (that Indian Muslims are worse off today) is parroted too often in Pakistan, because it reinforces the belief that creation of Pakistan was the right thing to do. Pakistani textbooks are full of such distortions, as reported in a Pakistani paper recently: http://tribune.com.pk/story/149448/our-textbooks-and-the-lie... . And here's a report [PDF] by a Pakistani NGO which goes into great detail about the anti-Hindu bias in Pakistani K-12 tectbooks: http://sdpi.org/sdpi-old/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Cur...

I grew up in India. And while I'll admit that there was some animosity towards Muslims, there was similar animosity towards other large groups too. This is to be expected in any poor society where people are competing for scant resources. There was no systemic bias against Muslims just because they're Muslims.