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I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

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Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#31

Post by caddemon »

Dobbs wrote: post #21
DanBC wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes There's no evidence of this. EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.

Quoted post unavailable.

I've been told to think of trans people as always being their true gender, from birth. Which makes perfect sense to me, but then that contradicts this discussion of athletics. Clearly there will be some points in time when the trans woman athlete had a biological advantage over other women, but that doesn't mean they weren't a woman at that time too.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#32

Post by taylodl »

DanBC wrote: post #7

So, she won, but somehow trans athletes have a huge advantage and will dominate the sport, even though there are no trans athletes dominating their sport? This article is just recycled homophobia following the UK pattern of vicious, anti-science, transphobia. There's no substance here -- the science shows that trans athletes do not have an advantage; the stats show that trans athletes don't have an advantage. The arg…

Don't forget Hanlon's Razor - "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", though I prefer to say "ignorance" instead of "stupidity."

Everybody, including us really smart people, have a domain of ignorance - things we really don't much about. The danger arises when we do think we know a lot about the subject when we don't. This is a trait afflicting many smart people. Expertise in one domain != expertise in another.

Back to your statement. Let's not assume the argument is being driven by hate but instead is being driven by ignorance; and our ignorance is born out of a scarcity of data and our experience with boys and girls sports. Most people, myself included, assume that a boy undergoing therapy to be a girl will perform better in sports than girls - after all that's why we separated boys and girls in sports in the first place. The hypothesis is trans girls will perform better in sports.

Time and data will tell if that hypothesis is correct. Anecdotally we can point to this girl won, but we can also anecdotally point to other cases where the trans girl won. Is that statistically significant? Do we have enough data to tell? I don't know, but I don't see how we're going to find out if we don't let trans girls compete as girls.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#33

Post by rtya »

DanBC wrote: post #8
jpgvm wrote: post #2

I don't disagree with their plight but it does raise the question of where transgender athletes should compete. Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes but a disadvantage over similarly aged males that aren't undergoing hormone treatments. Female-to-male athletes are probably different again, probably less severe than the former case though but still creating an advantage over natural fe…

> Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes There's no evidence of this. EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Conclusion:

"We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking."

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#34

Post by caddemon »

Dobbs wrote: post #11
exabrial wrote: post #4

Any rational discussion about this topic had unfortunately lead to accusations of *phobia nearly instantly, without considering the content of the argument.

Or there are legitimate issues of transphobia surrounding this topic. This is used as a stick to beat trans people often ignoring the realities of the situation. How few trans individuals compete, how the ones that do don't generally operate at a higher level than statistically is likely. How the scientific evidence we have on the matter is limited and conflicted at best for people who are are on HRT. It additionally…

I'm sure there are transphobic people that jump on these discussions, but I don't see any connection between this issue and trying to limit access to puberty blockers? If anything using puberty blockers should help diminish any hypothetical advantage trans women have in women's athletics.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#35

Post by DanBC »

s9w wrote: post #14
DanBC wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes There's no evidence of this. EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.

They are still guys. There's at least dozens, probably hundreds of examples.

Your inability to name any of them has been noted.

The fact that some cunts felt your comment was worthy of [vouching] despite your vile comment history tells us all we need to know about this cess pit.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#36

Post by DanBC »

Dobbs wrote: post #21
DanBC wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes There's no evidence of this. EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.

Quoted post unavailable.

[flagged]

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#37

Post by caddemon »

DanBC wrote: post #17
caddemon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I won that race, and I'm grateful. But time after time, I have lost. I’ve lost four women’s state championship titles, two all-New England awards, and numerous other spots on the podium to male runners. I was bumped to third place in the 55-meter dash in 2019, behind two male runners." I'm honestly not familiar with the literature on this issue at all, but the way you misrepresented the current article does not insp…

> I'm honestly not familiar with the literature on this issue at all But you've accepted at face values the claims this woman is making? https://www.outsports.com/2018/6/14/17458696/trans-athlete-c... > When you look at the results, it might be easy to understand why some people, like Soule, are upset. On the face of the results, it looks like two trans athletes have suddenly come along and raced into state titles an…

Just because someone doesn't win literally every event every time doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage. The trans women did slash up the recordbooks in the 55m dash, per even that source.

Different race types favor different physical attributes, the fact that they didn't win longer races doesn't say much about whether there was an advantage in the shorter dash.

How many trans women even compete in Connecticut high school track? The odds of the top two finishers on the entire state level being trans women are extremely low if they had no advantage.

I can certainly believe that trans women do not have any advantage if they began transitioning before puberty, but there are no restrictions on these details when looking at high school level athletics in most states.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#38

Post by slfnflctd »

taylodl wrote: post #32
DanBC wrote: post #7

So, she won, but somehow trans athletes have a huge advantage and will dominate the sport, even though there are no trans athletes dominating their sport? This article is just recycled homophobia following the UK pattern of vicious, anti-science, transphobia. There's no substance here -- the science shows that trans athletes do not have an advantage; the stats show that trans athletes don't have an advantage. The arg…

Don't forget Hanlon's Razor - "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", though I prefer to say "ignorance" instead of "stupidity." Everybody, including us really smart people, have a domain of ignorance - things we really don't much about. The danger arises when we do think we know a lot about the subject when we don't. This is a trait afflicting many smart people. Expertise in one…

> I don't know, but I don't see how we're going to find out if we don't let trans girls compete as girls.

My first thought is that they could be allowed to participate in programs right up to (but not yet including) actual major competitions where things like eligibility for college scholarships are determined. You shouldn't be allowed to "win State" - and receive all the potentially career altering benefits of that - when more than half the observers suspect the possibility of an unfair advantage and there's no clear scientific way to counter their suspicion.

We can collect plenty of data without messing with the entire life trajectories of kids before the results are in. I feel bad for any trans people who miss opportunities over this, but when you're pushing new frontiers you sometimes have to wait for an area to mapped before you can fully explore it.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#39

Post by rtya »

A thought experiment for the people who claim there is no advantage, let's look at the 800m world records:

Women (1:53,28 min):

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarmila_Kratochv%C3%ADlov%C3%A...

Men (1:40,91):

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rudisha

At the time of her world record, Kratochvílová basically looked like a man (draw your own conclusions about doping).

So I find it very hard to believe that a male record holder would drop below her record just by taking hormones.

Re: I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair

#40

Post by taylodl »

slfnflctd wrote: post #38
taylodl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget Hanlon's Razor - "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", though I prefer to say "ignorance" instead of "stupidity." Everybody, including us really smart people, have a domain of ignorance - things we really don't much about. The danger arises when we do think we know a lot about the subject when we don't. This is a trait afflicting many smart people. Expertise in one…

> I don't know, but I don't see how we're going to find out if we don't let trans girls compete as girls. My first thought is that they could be allowed to participate in programs right up to (but not yet including) actual major competitions where things like eligibility for college scholarships are determined. You shouldn't be allowed to "win State" - and receive all the potentially career altering benefits of that…

To your point then the real discussion here is money and how we fund higher education here in the United States. Now we see the domino effect of bad social policy.
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