Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors • Hacker News Board

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#31

Post by blackrock » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:11 AM UTC

ndespres wrote: post #12

mullingitover wrote: post #8

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod…

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

Because. Capitalism.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#32

Post by slg » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:11 AM UTC

Anon1096 wrote: post #25

slg wrote: post #4

For those who maybe clicked through to the comments before reading or didn't make it several paragraphs into the article, this is a direct result of Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign by Uber, Lyft, and other rideshare companies. This is one of the exact results predicted by opponents of Prop 22. Also there is basically no way for Prop 22 to be amended or repealed through the state legis…

>Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign You mean, passed on the backs of nearly 10 million voters . I always find it strange to tout the line of how much money was spent in an election, as if to say that the voters have no agency or culpability. Clinton spent nearly 2 times what Trump did and still lost. Money does not equal votes if the people don't support an issue.

Money buys votes at the margin. Everyone agrees on this including the people who supported Prop 22 otherwise they wouldn't have spent some $175m more than their opponents.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#33

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

Anon1096 wrote: post #25

slg wrote: post #4

For those who maybe clicked through to the comments before reading or didn't make it several paragraphs into the article, this is a direct result of Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign by Uber, Lyft, and other rideshare companies. This is one of the exact results predicted by opponents of Prop 22. Also there is basically no way for Prop 22 to be amended or repealed through the state legis…

>Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign You mean, passed on the backs of nearly 10 million voters . I always find it strange to tout the line of how much money was spent in an election, as if to say that the voters have no agency or culpability. Clinton spent nearly 2 times what Trump did and still lost. Money does not equal votes if the people don't support an issue.

[deleted]

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#34

Post by mc32 » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #20

mc32 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... how come before AB 5, companies didn't do this, why wait till AB 5 was passed then repealed by Prop 22 before doing this (are they clairvoyant)? In other words, had AB 5 not passed, this would likely have happened anyway as a progression towards off-loading "non-core" competencies to third parties as has continued to happen across industries (an iconic example is janitorial services which used to be handled i…

Companies are unwilling to upend their business based on laws that are highly controversial and the likely subject of future changes. Prop 22 provides the stability that these companies need to drop their full time employees and commit to outsourcing this work to rideshare drivers.

Let's suppose AB 5 provided cloudy outlook... before AB 5 that was not the case. There was no such law... did they somehow secretly know what was happening 5 years down the road and said, uhh, let's wait this out.

No, they could have done this before AB 5. They did not. This seems to say that this move would have happened if conditions allowed it and the situation was right for business.

What that means is sure AB 5 would have nixed this option. However, the trend before AB 5 was to off-load "non-core" competencies. Prop 22 re-instated the previous status, it did not introduce an altogether new status.

Prop 22 indicated the people preferred the original status to the new status introduced by AB 5, so we're back to where we started before AB 5.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#35

Post by Spooky23 » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #8

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod…

Yes, it was clearly unethical to rob these employees of the freedom of being piecework contractors.

Only through pulling bootstraps and making lemonade from lemons will these uneducated wretches be able to bask in the sunshine of freedom. Back in the glory days of Victorian England you could flip a boy a farthing for grocery delivery... I for one and pleased the make these opportunities available.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#36

Post by ndespres » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:14 AM UTC

julienb_sea wrote: post #21

ndespres wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contractors who want a side income to supplement their normal job. This discussion also should account for the benefit to society of having safe and low cost transportation and delivery options, which raises the dignity of many people who otherwise could not afford…

This is a story about a grocery store chain replacing their own employees who perform a job at the company, with "independent contractors" from a 3rd-party service. I'm not sure what case you're trying to make, whose dignity are you saying is violated? Who said anything about taxis?

Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage?

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#37

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:15 AM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #26

Not surprising. I can imagine there are efficiency gains to be made by using Doordash software and infrastructure, not to mention potential pickup and dropoff route optimization. Very weirded out tho on why the article has a prop22 angle. All prop22 did was amend AB5. This sort of thing happened already all the time before AB5. Now it will just continue. Can someone help me out here? Maybe because its from Knock-LA,…

[deleted]

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#38

Post by slg » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:15 AM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #28

slg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are unwilling to upend their business based on laws that are highly controversial and the likely subject of future changes. Prop 22 provides the stability that these companies need to drop their full time employees and commit to outsourcing this work to rideshare drivers.

How on earth can you say prop22 has provided any stability, when we are literally discussing an article bashing it, and with there being multiple ways of it being still repealed? Explain yourself.

Prop 22 is much more stable than AB5 because the requirements to change it are much more difficult to reach.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#39

Post by whatever1 » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

I will go one step further and say that in the developed nations, we need to abolish the concept of "contractors" at least in obvious cases where the contractors make minimum wage or even less for working fulltime jobs.

From my experience in most of the cases, companies (regardless of the country) use this window to circumvent employment regulation & protections.

A contract assumes that there is negotiating power from both ends. It is a joke to think that a poor Uber driver has any power to negotiate their "contract" with Uber to drive 14 hours per day for them.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#40

Post by slg » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 3:18 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #34

slg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are unwilling to upend their business based on laws that are highly controversial and the likely subject of future changes. Prop 22 provides the stability that these companies need to drop their full time employees and commit to outsourcing this work to rideshare drivers.

Let's suppose AB 5 provided cloudy outlook... before AB 5 that was not the case. There was no such law... did they somehow secretly know what was happening 5 years down the road and said, uhh, let's wait this out. No, they could have done this before AB 5. They did not. This seems to say that this move would have happened if conditions allowed it and the situation was right for business. What that means is sure AB 5…

The rideshare industry likely couldn't have supported this 5 years ago and it was clear that something like AB5 was going to happen for years. Prop 22 provides unprecedented clarity on how ridesharing will be legislated in California for the foreseeable future.