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Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

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Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#21

Post by julienb_sea »

ndespres wrote: post #12
mullingitover wrote: post #8

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod…

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contractors who want a side income to supplement their normal job. This discussion also should account for the benefit to society of having safe and low cost transportation and delivery options, which raises the dignity of many people who otherwise could not afford the rates of for example taxis.

Living wage is a mutable concept and is determined in large part by where you live and how many children you have. Wages for a job are based on a fair market rate within reasonable bounds, like minimum wage. Raising minimum wage too high has adverse effects on job availability.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#22

Post by [deleted] »

ndespres wrote: post #12
mullingitover wrote: post #8

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod…

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

[deleted]

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#23

Post by bryan_w »

bpodgursky wrote: post #10
d2v wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we should make it so companies can't write an unrepealable law and then dump hundreds of millions of dollars into a disinformation campaign to get it passed. Both are probably wishful thinking though.

It's repealable the same way it was passed: by popular vote.

Seems like @d2v has fallen for some misinformation.

They think this law is "unrepealable" which doesn't even make sense if you take half a second to think about it.

Kinda says more about them than anything else I guess.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#24

Post by mullingitover »

gnicholas wrote: post #13
mullingitover wrote: post #8

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod…

> Had Prod 22 passed, jobs would've been lost in other areas. The small fraction of 'full-time' gig workers would've come out ahead. You mean “Had Prop 22 failed ”?

Indeed I did, fixed.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#25

Post by Anon1096 »

slg wrote: post #4

For those who maybe clicked through to the comments before reading or didn't make it several paragraphs into the article, this is a direct result of Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign by Uber, Lyft, and other rideshare companies. This is one of the exact results predicted by opponents of Prop 22. Also there is basically no way for Prop 22 to be amended or repealed through the state legis…

>Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign

You mean, passed on the backs of nearly 10 million voters.

I always find it strange to tout the line of how much money was spent in an election, as if to say that the voters have no agency or culpability. Clinton spent nearly 2 times what Trump did and still lost. Money does not equal votes if the people don't support an issue.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#26

Post by Jommi »

Not surprising. I can imagine there are efficiency gains to be made by using Doordash software and infrastructure, not to mention potential pickup and dropoff route optimization.

Very weirded out tho on why the article has a prop22 angle. All prop22 did was amend AB5. This sort of thing happened already all the time before AB5. Now it will just continue.

Can someone help me out here? Maybe because its from Knock-LA, a left publication?

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#27

Post by kbar13 »

whalesalad wrote: post #15

Everyone is so against this move but it I was a grocery store I wouldn’t want this responsibility either. These stores are in the business of groceries, not delivery. They got into delivery because they had to and I’d imagine it was losing a lot of money and not to mention tough for them to accomplish and manage. Everyone else and their brother is moving to doordash white label because it makes the most sense. They f…

i dont think anyone is arguing that grocery stores should run their own delivery service. the problem is that these delivery drivers / gig workers should be getting benefits and fair wages for essentially working full time jobs.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#28

Post by Jommi »

slg wrote: post #20
mc32 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... how come before AB 5, companies didn't do this, why wait till AB 5 was passed then repealed by Prop 22 before doing this (are they clairvoyant)? In other words, had AB 5 not passed, this would likely have happened anyway as a progression towards off-loading "non-core" competencies to third parties as has continued to happen across industries (an iconic example is janitorial services which used to be handled i…

Companies are unwilling to upend their business based on laws that are highly controversial and the likely subject of future changes. Prop 22 provides the stability that these companies need to drop their full time employees and commit to outsourcing this work to rideshare drivers.

How on earth can you say prop22 has provided any stability, when we are literally discussing an article bashing it, and with there being multiple ways of it being still repealed? Explain yourself.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#29

Post by slg »

Jommi wrote: post #19
slg wrote: post #4

For those who maybe clicked through to the comments before reading or didn't make it several paragraphs into the article, this is a direct result of Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign by Uber, Lyft, and other rideshare companies. This is one of the exact results predicted by opponents of Prop 22. Also there is basically no way for Prop 22 to be amended or repealed through the state legis…

Untrue. 1) This has always been allowed, but AB5 made it illegal. Then a shitton of industries got granted exceptions to it, and ride-hailing + food-delivery did the same. 2) Prop22 can be be amended only by a seven-eighths vote of the Legislature or a new ballot measure — AND state labor laws can be superseded by federal laws and regulations for enterprises that affect interstate commerce. Please stop spreading fals…

I answer point one here[1].

Point two is why I threw a "basically" in that sentence. Yes, you are technically correct that the state can change it with a 7/8ths majority. However requiring a supermajority that high is a nearly unprecedented requirement for the legislature and it is one that is going to be nearly impossible to achieve.

I honestly don't know what you consider "false information" here beyond me saying "basically no way" for something to happen when it is realistically unfeasible.

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25641377

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#30

Post by whalesalad »

kbar13 wrote: post #27
whalesalad wrote: post #15

Everyone is so against this move but it I was a grocery store I wouldn’t want this responsibility either. These stores are in the business of groceries, not delivery. They got into delivery because they had to and I’d imagine it was losing a lot of money and not to mention tough for them to accomplish and manage. Everyone else and their brother is moving to doordash white label because it makes the most sense. They f…

i dont think anyone is arguing that grocery stores should run their own delivery service. the problem is that these delivery drivers / gig workers should be getting benefits and fair wages for essentially working full time jobs.

No they shouldn’t. That will perpetuate the issue. Healthcare needs to move in the direction of being provided by the state or at least needs to be decoupled from your profession and affordable.

The status quo is what needs to change. Gig economy work is going to take over. People need to insure and protect themselves. And it needs to be possible.

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