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“I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

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Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#31

Post by mandelken »

243462 wrote: post #13

>i don't remember what it was exactly that he said after that but he explained to us the value of considering the ethics of the software you're writing prior to writing it, and it was one of the most impactful things i ever learned in school, period How is the US having accurate weapons unethical? These hypocrites never seem all that concerned about the war-making capacity of China, Russia, Iran, or other rogue state…

It is unethical because the US is the only country to have used the atomic bomb and by far the largest missile threat all over the planet today.

In contrast, Iran, China and Russia do not on a daily basis assassinate civilians with missiles.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#32

Post by the-dude »

gattis wrote: post #9
andretti1977 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion your defense of US is completely unacceptable and wrong but i don't want to start a discussion about that: i want you to consider that in general, it's better to spend energy, focus, money and any other constructive effort in creating something that helps people instead of something that kills people, even if you consider those people bad ones. It's better to spend efforts in education and culture inste…

you kinda need some people to be making missiles in order for everyone else to have the luxury of being able to spend their efforts on education and culture. do you know of any countries without missiles? exactly.

Why is that? Has the US ever been seriously threatened on its terrority?

These missiles are there to protect the economic hegemony.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#33

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

ewi_ wrote: post #11
hirundo wrote: post #6

As a former writer of telemarketing software it's nice to have missile guidance software developers that I can feel somewhat morally superior to. But in their defense at least missiles can be used in a non-evil way, but I'm not so sure about telemarketing software.

I am curious as to how missiles (or any weapon for that matter) could be used in "non-evil" way

Blasting an incoming asteroid.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#34

Post by WalterBright »

andretti1977 wrote: post #8
ardit33 wrote: post #5

I don't agree with this mentality. If you are helping a dictator or authoritarian regime, sure. I think it is in the wrong side of the story. But helping out the US in developing high-precission weapons does the opposite. 1. It might save lifes, as the alternative is dumb carpet bombing. As we know during WW2, carpet bombing killed mostly civilians and destroyed cities. 2. Most weapons that the US has, are there for…

In my opinion your defense of US is completely unacceptable and wrong but i don't want to start a discussion about that: i want you to consider that in general, it's better to spend energy, focus, money and any other constructive effort in creating something that helps people instead of something that kills people, even if you consider those people bad ones. It's better to spend efforts in education and culture inste…

Hitler started WW2 because he thought the other countries wouldn't fight or were incapable of fighting. His comment about invading the Soviet Union: "We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down."

The way to make peace is to make sure it is not worthwhile for someone else to attack you.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#35

Post by adventured »

pjc50 wrote: post #10
ardit33 wrote: post #5

I don't agree with this mentality. If you are helping a dictator or authoritarian regime, sure. I think it is in the wrong side of the story. But helping out the US in developing high-precission weapons does the opposite. 1. It might save lifes, as the alternative is dumb carpet bombing. As we know during WW2, carpet bombing killed mostly civilians and destroyed cities. 2. Most weapons that the US has, are there for…

Does this extend to all countries that the US sells weapons to? Are you happy about the use of US weapons by Saudi Arabia against Yemen, for example?

You don't think that's balanced by the US selling weapons to several dozen of the freest nations on the planet, liberal democracies with the best human rights records?

Do you know why the US is the world's biggest arms dealer? Mostly because all of those free, liberal democracies buy very expensive weapons from the US and have the most affluent economies (thus they can afford US aircraft that cost tens of millions of dollars).

In a typical year, 3/4 or more of all US weapons sales go to human rights protecting liberal democracies. Across five years to 2017, 18% of US weapons sales went to Saudi Arabia (12.4% went to Taiwan and Australia by comparison).

Should the US stop selling weapons to Taiwan, so China's annexation is really easy? Should the US stop selling weapons to Australia, so China can be even less worried as they try to intimidate Australia and control Asia?

Does it take all of those liberal democracies to offset Saudi Arabia, or is it one to one? How does the subjective moral scale work exactly? Does it accumulate over time, such that the US has a billion year credit for protecting and aiding Europe and Asia before and after WW2? How many credits is keeping democratic Taiwan apart from China for this long worth? Does the US get a trillion moral credits for being the only nation that is willing to stand up to China militarily re Taiwan? How about South Korea, does one South Korea for 70 years off-set one Saudi Arabia?

So many fascinating questions and that's just scratching the surface.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#36

Post by hnracer »

tpxl wrote: post #24
243462 wrote: post #13

>i don't remember what it was exactly that he said after that but he explained to us the value of considering the ethics of the software you're writing prior to writing it, and it was one of the most impactful things i ever learned in school, period How is the US having accurate weapons unethical? These hypocrites never seem all that concerned about the war-making capacity of China, Russia, Iran, or other rogue state…

It's ethical to do unethical things because other "worse" people do unethical things?

No, it is ethical to have weapons because it's a bulwark and disincentive against countries with even more tyrannical objectives. This is not to defend the extent to which weapons systems are being invested in. But they need to be invested in. The race is not optional.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#37

Post by ardit33 »

andretti1977 wrote: post #8
ardit33 wrote: post #5

I don't agree with this mentality. If you are helping a dictator or authoritarian regime, sure. I think it is in the wrong side of the story. But helping out the US in developing high-precission weapons does the opposite. 1. It might save lifes, as the alternative is dumb carpet bombing. As we know during WW2, carpet bombing killed mostly civilians and destroyed cities. 2. Most weapons that the US has, are there for…

In my opinion your defense of US is completely unacceptable and wrong but i don't want to start a discussion about that: i want you to consider that in general, it's better to spend energy, focus, money and any other constructive effort in creating something that helps people instead of something that kills people, even if you consider those people bad ones. It's better to spend efforts in education and culture inste…

As i have cousins that are survivor of genocide and ethnic cleansing, which the US prevented in the late 90s by the use of such weapons, i completely disagree with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

But to each their own.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#38

Post by masklinn »

mandelken wrote: post #18
ewi_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious as to how missiles (or any weapon for that matter) could be used in "non-evil" way

I think he's referring to putting satellites into space for civilian use, but I could be mistaken.

These would not be qualified as missiles and have their own guidance systems. Having your rocket go and slam into a neighbouring country is not very conducive to putting satellites into space.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#39

Post by Gibbon1 »

TheRealJu4n wrote: post #2

This is an extreme example on how we are at risk for creating the very systems they use to put people at risk. There's no "ey, i'm one of the good guys, i'm on the right side", one day you wake up just to find yourself as the target.

My dad used to work on personal carriers during the Vietnam war. In 67 FMC sent him with a group of other engineer to Vietnam to figure out why the M113 wasn't performing as well as advertised. Short answer when you hit a M113 with a tank rocket it turns into an oven.

My dad came home and quit.

Since then I've been kinda aware that a lot of engineers work is on the balance is a net negative. Especially true in the US and getting worse.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#40

Post by hnracer »

the-dude wrote: post #32
gattis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you kinda need some people to be making missiles in order for everyone else to have the luxury of being able to spend their efforts on education and culture. do you know of any countries without missiles? exactly.

Why is that? Has the US ever been seriously threatened on its terrority? These missiles are there to protect the economic hegemony.

Yes, during the Pearl Harbor attack. This was 75-80 years ago, on the time scale of civilizations, quite a short time. Not to mention that the US is within range of the ICBMs of various authoritarian regimes.
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