Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#31

Post by pjmorris » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:53 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #14

clapper wrote: post #8

No, a land value tax is Capitalism 2.0 - deriving tax revenues from people who don't work instead of people who do work.

That’s a really regressive tax and would punish poor people, who have a much greater portion of their net worth tied up on land than a rich person.

I've heard this claim before, but have never seen it supported. Anecdotally, across decades of experience, it's typically not the poorest people I know who own much land, if any at all. Where they do, they own only a little, rather than a lot. Can you speak to your evidence for your claim?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#32

Post by blackflame7000 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #16

runawaybottle wrote: post #13

Won’t it just be negated with increased cost of living? If people get 1000 a month free, you better believe that rent starts at 1000. The free money will never do what it’s supposed to do in the long run. It’s better to just give the actual service for free (healthcare, college, transportation).

And it will obviously never just sit at $1000. There will be a riot every other week to change the UBI payments. "Too high!" "Too low!"

Has anyone ever rioted because of too much money from the government?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#33

Post by thoughtstheseus » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

phillpot wrote: post #20

GDP is a bad metric. The planet does not have unlimited resources to fuel unlimited growth.

Similar arguments were made during our agrarian period, there's only so much farmable land so there is a limit on population and growth. Productivity gains and innovation remove that issue.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#34

Post by _jahh » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

maybe garbage disposal is more expensive because the firms do pay more so people now have a greater incentive to recycle and use less.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#35

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

kingbirdy wrote: post #24

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

If I have to pay higher taxes but it means everyone is working in a job they love that seems like a worthwhile trade.

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#36

Post by teruakohatu » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

The argument against that is base wages may drop as business pay less because people can afford to take lower paying jobs, or as low as minimum wage allows.

My country (NZ) pays most families a weekly amount based on how many kids they have and their household income (Technically it is a tax break and so only applies to people who earn money, but for most people it might as well be a payment).

Some have claimed this has suppressed wages and is a subsidy to businesses from the government. Minimum wage rises counteracts this. I am not sure if this theory can be proven.

Regardless I would expect a wage/price spiral causing inflation initially:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price/wage_spiral

https://www.ird.govt.nz/topics/working-for-families/can-i-ge...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#37

Post by elil17 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Or crappy jobs should have to pay more. Handling stinking garbage all day sounds like a job that should be high paying given how miserable it is. But due to desperation, people without other options are willing to accept very low amounts of money to do it. With UBI, the price of hiring a garbage collector would equal the price necessary to fairly compensate someone for having to pick up garbage.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#38

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

DeonPenny wrote: post #28

I feel like this is the perfect example why everyone should at some point be required to start a business. Because some of these ideas stem from to many people not understand the economy in a real sense because they are always workers and see the world through that lens.

You don’t need to make an attempt as a business owner to understand why the economy is broken. A change in perspective doesn’t fix a broken system.

Edit: I am absolutely biased against a system that favors the wealthy at the detriment to your average citizen. “Look at how well this system works for us while the rest of you suffer!” is not helpful.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#39

Post by DeonPenny » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #16

runawaybottle wrote: post #13

Won’t it just be negated with increased cost of living? If people get 1000 a month free, you better believe that rent starts at 1000. The free money will never do what it’s supposed to do in the long run. It’s better to just give the actual service for free (healthcare, college, transportation).

And it will obviously never just sit at $1000. There will be a riot every other week to change the UBI payments. "Too high!" "Too low!"

Not every week. Eventually the poeple paying for UBI will leave or guillotine over their head will be used and body will be looted. Rinse and repeat every-time equity is tried.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#40

Post by TrinaryWorksToo » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Yeah, we don't need people to work. This will incentivize people to automate work where possible. The ideal world is everything is automated and EVERYONE benefits, vs what we have now: much is automated and the rich benefit while others have to work shit jobs or die.