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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#31

Post by cm2187 »

hardlianotion wrote: post #23
cm2187 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a dog who doesn't understand why the vet tortures him!

That's just an insult.

No it's an analogy for a population who didn't see fit to pay their taxes, have a functioning state, who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically, and doesn't understand why they are forced to make economic sacrifices to correct the situation.

I think the accusation of ignorance is kinder than the alternative ("let's not pay our taxes, the germans will pay for us").

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#32

Post by selectiveshift »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

If only political grandstanding wasn’t necessary and we could have nuanced discussions in public.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#33

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

When these discussions impact so many people (various countries affected) I don't believe they should be kept secret.

Lets (just for example, I am not saying it happened), during that meeting, the German/French Finance minister said: 'I don't care about the Greek people, we can't let German/French banks fall, so do what you must if you ever want the ECB to lend you money'. Wouldn't the greek people deserve to know and make up their mind about their part in the EU project?

(again, I am not saying this happened, but I can see similar backdoor deals being put forward)

Lets not forget that any opposition to the EU project by the citizens is seen as misinformed or misleded people. It is never the EU's fault [1]

[1] - https://torrentfreak.com/eu-commission-portrays-article-13-o... (Sorry, no time to search for other source, but the comments were also published in my local newspapers)

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#34

Post by tsimionescu »

tasubotadas wrote: post #16
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

Well, I kinda do not like Varoufakis, because he came off as an entitled know-it-all prick (a not so rare trait in academia). He made lots of bold claims but in the end, nothing really got accomplished. EDIT: Regarding the fact that the public deserves to know, I disagree. The public can act completely irrationally against its own interests under FUD (I guess we have some recent examples from the UK and the US), and…

> The public can act completely irrationally against its own interests under FUD (I guess we have some recent examples from the UK and the US), and in a lot of cases, they are better off not knowing.

FUD comes exactly out of not knowing. The more obscure the workings and negotiation of power are, the more mystique they hold and the more chances for spin they have.

Democracy is not and must not be limited to choosing your representative once every four years - it should be a living system of dialogue, where you constantly offer feedback and hear back from your representative (not saying it has to be personal). This is the only way to build trust and have a responsive system.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#35

Post by iSnow »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6
tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

>While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge.

The decisions, yes. But not recordings of every brainfart of every participant.

>means there is probably something there are is damning to someone

Probably. At least something that can be spun to be damning. However, I do not subscribe to the view that the end justifies the means. We live in times where every bad joke by a member of the elites is twisted into an outrage, and not too much good comes off this.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#36

Post by bobcostas55 »

tasubotadas wrote: post #10
ninjamayo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what happened afterwards to Greece is also pretty shitty

What happened? It's a success story. I get that people do not like the fact that they can't retire now at 55yo or that they had to privatize a few big national companies, but I think it's a perfect example where the doctor knows better than the patient what's best for them.

Greek GDP is still 40% below 2008. Almost no serious reforms were passed. Greece did the largest default in history and somehow still ended up with 181% dept/gdp with absolutely nothing to show for it, the Troika just continued funding the kleptocracy.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#37

Post by tasubotadas »

mempko wrote: post #24
tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

You know what's a shitty move? What the euogroup did to greece and other countries.

I grew up in a country that joined the EU and boomed afterwards. We had the same crisis and probably even worse austerity measures than Greece after the 2008 crisis and some politicians are still in a tough spot until this day.

In all aspects, Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece. How did that happen?

But never once, anyone in public considered on "asking on forgiving on our debts". It really makes me wonder the audacity of the people that claim it's the Eurogroups fault that they have lent money to Greece.

It really makes a difference, when people own up to their future.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#38

Post by tasubotadas »

jnmandal wrote: post #17
tasubotadas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened? It's a success story. I get that people do not like the fact that they can't retire now at 55yo or that they had to privatize a few big national companies, but I think it's a perfect example where the doctor knows better than the patient what's best for them.

Na malaka

That's very mature of you.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#39

Post by iSnow »

arethuza wrote: post #30
sykick wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the situation is that German and French banks flooded Greece with easy credit. And as it always happens under such circumstances people/corporations/governments borrowed heavily and when the crisis hit in 2009 they couldn’t repay. All of the so called bailouts have been aimed at making sure French and German banks didn’t suffer and the ones who did suffer have been the Greek people with the except…

Varoufakis also mentions in his books that German reparation payments to Greece after WW2 were conveniently cancelled by the Western allies when they needed (West) Germany onside to face the Soviets. https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for...

Pretty much any and all reparations were cancelled for Western Germany and today's Germany by continuation. It was a mix of "we need Germany now" and the less than stellar experiences with reparations after WW I.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#40

Post by lucianoq »

To the people who think Greece deserved that:

lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the debt+interest already cashed in.

An any case increasing suicide-rate and child mortality-rate is not the right answer, unless you are called "mafia" or "IMF".

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