Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#31

Post by keanzu » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

shiftpgdn wrote: post #18

kdudhshdjf wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liability should always lie with the self driving car. In the real world weird shit happens on roads, people adapt and are expected to adapt. What good is a car that I can't trust to be at least as reliable as an overly defensive version of myself?

If human drivers are getting killed in the same spot the same is it still a vehicle saftey problem?

How many Teslas on lane keep assist safely drove past that spot vs how many humans?

If every million human drivers have one accident and every 1000 Teslas have a similar accident then yes, it is a vehicle safety problem.

An auto driving system needs to have a higher margin of safety than a human driver not the same or worse.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#32

Post by amiga_500 » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #21

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

On the flip-side I feel like Tesla has done a good job distinguishing Autopilot from their Full Self Driving package. Autopilot is a mashup of safety features (lane-assist, cruise-control, etc). We can debate all day how you feel about the name, but that seems petty and you're even wrong about that. The name fits perfectly, look up the definition to autopilot. Edit: no hero cape here, just a different opinion. I know…

Auto: short for automatic

Pilot: a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft.

Auto. Pilot.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#33

Post by ww520 » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

I have a car with the "autopilot" feature like the Tesla, but they call it adaptive cruise control and lane assist. The adaptive cruise control works pretty well; I guess it only needs to check the radar to see what's in front to slow down. The lane assist is problematic in recognizing different kind of lanes and would steer off course from time to time. I guess the current state of "autopilot" technology is simply not there.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#34

Post by sneak » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

At the risk of sounding callous: how many Tesla drivers have previously complained about autopilot and not been killed whilst using it?

How many non-Tesla drivers were killed in the same timespan by driving manually?

This seems like a very naked appeal to emotion, and not relevant to the situation.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#35

Post by aaron_m04 » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #24

harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

From my experience, not a hard turn. The worst was it was raining and inconstant lane markings around a turn. I wondered if it was going to make the turn or if it was going to make it too late towards the sidewall. It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving

> It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving

That itself could be dangerous if it isn't very obvious to the driver that autopilot is no longer engaged.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#36

Post by eropple » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #21

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

On the flip-side I feel like Tesla has done a good job distinguishing Autopilot from their Full Self Driving package. Autopilot is a mashup of safety features (lane-assist, cruise-control, etc). We can debate all day how you feel about the name, but that seems petty and you're even wrong about that. The name fits perfectly, look up the definition to autopilot. Edit: no hero cape here, just a different opinion. I know…

Words, in general, mean things. "Autopilot" is a word that means things. It does not, most notably mean "at its most generously-described best, full and complete attention the entire time lest it send you into the side of a semi at highway speeds or direct you into a concrete barrier".

Tesla does not need any heroes with capes attempting to minimize their literally-not-figuratively-dangerous marketing. They'll do fine without it. I promise.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#37

Post by falcolas » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

shiftpgdn wrote: post #17

threeseed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all conjecture. You don't know that the driver would still be alive if the lanes were painted correctly etc. Autopilot could still misidentify the barrier as we've seen it do in other situations.

Five drivers hit the same barrier the year before the Tesla accident and a second human piloted vehicle fataly struck the same barrier just two months after the Tesa crash. It is absolutely a road design and maintenance issue.

It’s also a road design and marking issue. But poor roads and markings are normal, outside the biggest cities.

For a good portion of the year, you can’t rely on being able to see any road markings in the Midwest and Pacific Northwest.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#38

Post by ip26 » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc...

Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already late no mater how fast you react.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#39

Post by ksml » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

32gbsd wrote: post #26

Last stat i saw was something along the lines of 3k people dieing in crashes everyday. I personally "almost crash" at least 4 times a day. Driving is a dangerous game.

You almost crash at least 4 times a day?? I have no stats but I don't think that's normal. You should be driving much more defensively if that's the case.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#40

Post by perl4ever » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off."

On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes.

On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious problems (and a recall) where automatic braking triggers inappropriately and may cause an accident.

People have incredible faith in software and technology, and that's fine and all, but I wonder what people like that hang around HN for.