Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground • Hacker News Board

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#31

Post by istjohn » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:34 AM UTC

jkaplowitz wrote: post #27

istjohn wrote: post #17

There is a debate as to whether or not legalizing prostitution exacerbates sex slavery by creating a market for prostitution that willing market participants are unable to fill. This author[1] points out that studies on this question use the term "sex trafficking" which can mean either illegal immigration of willing sex workers or sex slavery. That distinction seems important, but is often not clarified by investigat…

This is a big simplification: There are male sex workers and female sex worker customers even if most of each population is the other way around. Additionally, voluntary sex workers themselves generally oppose the forced labour market (i.e. sex slavery) as much as the prohibitionists, even if they're understandably focusing more on decriminalizing themselves. And I don't think the sex-worker-exclusionary feminists ar…

Empirically, the vast majority of those who hire sex workers are men. But yes, as I said, it's a gross over-simplification.

I would hope everyone opposes sex slavery.

In the progressive circles I'm familiar with in my midwestern city (Columbus, Ohio), I've never seen anyone make a feminist case for decriminalization or legalization. The consensus among progressives here is that sex work is bad for women. The voices I hear in the national media do tend to be ambivalent if not outright pro-sex-work, though, so I agree it's not simple.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#32

Post by hnuser77 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #4

What is sad is that there are a lot of real-size social experiments in various countries that have a variety of legislation and situation and a ton of literature to guide policy there. I have (like everybody) some opinions on how sex should work and what limits paid sex should have. I'll just say that: My preferences are totally irrelevant and should be dismissed if they have any chance of increasing human traffickin…

It seems reasonable to claim (and seems to be backed up by authorities on the issue) that most genuine sex trafficking originates from two sources: 1) visa fraud and/or human smuggling across the border and 2) domestically, broken homes. Trying to fix either of these root causes requires stepping on some political landmines.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#33

Post by roenxi » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:37 AM UTC

istjohn wrote: post #17

There is a debate as to whether or not legalizing prostitution exacerbates sex slavery by creating a market for prostitution that willing market participants are unable to fill. This author[1] points out that studies on this question use the term "sex trafficking" which can mean either illegal immigration of willing sex workers or sex slavery. That distinction seems important, but is often not clarified by investigat…

You've missed a fairly large FOR - people who support freedom & liberty. The arguments against prostitution centre around its second order effects on greater society and is a crime with hypothetical rather than actual victims.

The argument that there should be a victim of some sort before criminalising something is compelling. It is difficult to argue that the prostitutes feel they are victims of prostitution without discovering that other crimes are already being committed without criminalising prostitution.

I have a much easier times justifying criminalising alcohol from principles than it is to argue against criminalising prostitutes, so I don't see why the one with obviously terrible second order effects is considered to be OK and not the other. We have to accept that we already tolerate a level of background things-slipping-through-the-cracks for the sake of liberty and general comfort.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#34

Post by bluecalm » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:42 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #4

What is sad is that there are a lot of real-size social experiments in various countries that have a variety of legislation and situation and a ton of literature to guide policy there. I have (like everybody) some opinions on how sex should work and what limits paid sex should have. I'll just say that: My preferences are totally irrelevant and should be dismissed if they have any chance of increasing human traffickin…

Human trafficking is not the only consideration. There is health and safety of sex workers, issue of tying public resources to police voluntary victimless acts as well as just freedom to make choices about your life. Prohibition makes all the above significantly worse. You would need a lot of compelling evidence it helps reducing trafficking to even get into a reasonable debate on it. I highly doubt it was ever about trafficking to begin with. It's about various groups (on both right and left) wanting to tell people what they are and are not allowed to do with their bodies.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#35

Post by edflsafoiewq » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

istjohn wrote: post #26

55555 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be illegal for customers to pay for prostitution? Why do you feel prostitutes are entitled to above-market wages?

Their contention is that legal sex work creates a market that incentivises sex trafficking, in which case it should be illegal to protect women from being victimized.

Can male sex workers be legalized then?

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#36

Post by ryacko » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

burnte wrote: post #10

Noooooo! When I ehard about backpage being shut down because it was the biggest place for child sex trafficking, I said it was the dumbest move they could make. You have a website with the vast majority of illegal sex traffickers COMING TO YOU, and you close it? Why? Make BP a deal, give the FBI an office to scan everything so they can go after child sex traffickers, and you can stay open. We'd have arrested thousand…

If you can't speak English to the prostitute or she seems afraid, it would be a suspicious situation.

"child sex traffickers"

I don't know where you get that from.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#37

Post by stevenicr » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:05 AM UTC

dzonga wrote: post #21

the reason, backpage was shut down is that the gvt couldn't get a cut. and like all activities that are morally, grey. once the gvt stops getting their cut, they will scoop in. it's just the same, way the mafia is allowed to operate unions etc and once they ruffle feathers and stop contributing to politicians then all of a sudden the mafia is running a racket. Yet the gvt runs the biggest racket, protection scheme. s…

I believe it was shutdown not because they didn't get a cut, but because they were the perfect boogeyman to create a large cut of other pies.

From 'im a do-gooder' message in campaign ads, to raising money from church groups - backpage was popular enough for just about everyone to have known about it, and many people likely to have an associate that actually uses it..

from Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart, and all of his free press coverage (free campaign money) - to others. I believe Kamalla Hariz, Marcha Blakbern, and others used the backpage boogeyman as a springboard to capture free press, free exposure, and drum up free campaign money.

Sadly many of those the used the victory lap of the shutdown got lots of exposure for the occurrence and the various roles they may have played - yet the same outlets that pushed those stories have been remaining silent on the exposure of the shady investigative work, and the truths of the case like showing that most the investigators knew backpage was actively helping them take out child workers.

It seems the political grandstanding and free capitol from the exposure and donations outweighed keeping a popular tool that was used by many investigators to separate the kids from the adults and the forced from the free willing.

The boogeyman in AZ in now porn in general and cell phones I think? Some kind of forced tax to unlock porn on your device, enforced by the phone companies?

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#38

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:10 AM UTC

heydabop wrote: post #29

istjohn wrote: post #17

There is a debate as to whether or not legalizing prostitution exacerbates sex slavery by creating a market for prostitution that willing market participants are unable to fill. This author[1] points out that studies on this question use the term "sex trafficking" which can mean either illegal immigration of willing sex workers or sex slavery. That distinction seems important, but is often not clarified by investigat…

> AGAINST: Women. Women stand to lose if their partners are tempted by legal prostitution. If someone's partner is gonna be tempted away simply by legal prostitution, maybe they aren't the most faithful to begin with.

[deleted]

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#39

Post by saagarjha » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:10 AM UTC

istjohn wrote: post #31

jkaplowitz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big simplification: There are male sex workers and female sex worker customers even if most of each population is the other way around. Additionally, voluntary sex workers themselves generally oppose the forced labour market (i.e. sex slavery) as much as the prohibitionists, even if they're understandably focusing more on decriminalizing themselves. And I don't think the sex-worker-exclusionary feminists ar…

Empirically, the vast majority of those who hire sex workers are men. But yes, as I said, it's a gross over-simplification. I would hope everyone opposes sex slavery. In the progressive circles I'm familiar with in my midwestern city (Columbus, Ohio), I've never seen anyone make a feminist case for decriminalization or legalization. The consensus among progressives here is that sex work is bad for women. The voices I…

I've heard the argument that criminalization fundamentally deprives a woman of the right to choose what to do with her body, which I'd consider a feminist argument.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#40

Post by istjohn » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:27 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #33

istjohn wrote: post #17

There is a debate as to whether or not legalizing prostitution exacerbates sex slavery by creating a market for prostitution that willing market participants are unable to fill. This author[1] points out that studies on this question use the term "sex trafficking" which can mean either illegal immigration of willing sex workers or sex slavery. That distinction seems important, but is often not clarified by investigat…

You've missed a fairly large FOR - people who support freedom & liberty. The arguments against prostitution centre around its second order effects on greater society and is a crime with hypothetical rather than actual victims. The argument that there should be a victim of some sort before criminalising something is compelling. It is difficult to argue that the prostitutes feel they are victims of prostitution without…

Freedom and liberty is one argument for legalization, but I don't think there are enough hard core Libertarians to be a major force in this debate.