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In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

economist.com

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Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#31

Post by newen »

PeterisP wrote: post #8
shuaib wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting we need to keep a balance between war and peace? That too much peace will lead to our extinction?

Not necessarily to extinction but to loss of control - I mean, becoming peaceful often means not investing in defence capability thus becoming weak, and becoming weak means inviting violence by opportunistic neighbours or inside groups. It's a coordination problem - as any subgroup of homo sapiens that unilaterally abstains from violent power risks simply being overtaken by another subgroup that doesn't; you can abst…

A good example is Tibet.

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#32

Post by InfinityByTen »

MiroF wrote: post #28
InfinityByTen wrote: post #19

BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 ] Also the other protest accepted by I…

Hackernews always has such a strong pro-Modi bias. I wonder why that is because it doesn't seem to be the case on any other social media like this one.

Really? Either you don't see the comments or maybe because you see orange on the site :D :D :D

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#33

Post by InfinityByTen »

dragonwriter wrote: post #27
InfinityByTen wrote: post #19

BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 ] Also the other protest accepted by I…

> Lockdown in a terrorist, separatist and rebel location is a security measure more than a curbing of Freedom of speech. It's curbing freedom of speech just as much if it is a security measure. The pretext, however valid it might be, doesn't alter the essential character of the act. Of course, calling a location “terrorist, separatist, and rebel” because there happen to be terrorists, separatists, and/or rebels in it…

" because there happen to be terrorists, separatists, and/or rebels in it". You agree? This is to counter the spread of fake news, rumours and minimize the stone pelting. Because all of those things would happen in a place where these elements are growing by the day, infiltrated and brainwashed. and then if you use tear gas, pellet guns and other means to slow down mobs, then people will cry again. I'd rather have people cry like this than some people getting injured, hurt or worst killed, because they became a part of a mob that became impossible to control.

I don't think the Government seeks to make this a lockdown permanent and felicitate any kind of suppression. There's a provision for government the and the place can continue to have it's own powers, just that it can't become bigger than the country itself, which had become the norm.

The context does justify certain restraining measures. What sort of argument is it that claims if you're wrapping someone in a blanket in the summer, it's a crime, not looking at the fact that the person is burning? You have to take certain measures till the situation calms down and people come to the level of responding instead of reacting. If this becomes a constant thing like for years or decades like the two bills had become, then yes, I see your concern. A temporal restrain cannot be exaggerated to "war crimes".

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#34

Post by InfinityByTen »

unmole wrote: post #21
InfinityByTen wrote: post #19

BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 ] Also the other protest accepted by I…

> BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. This is bullshit. Even the Home Ministry has walked back from the There were no protests line. Source: https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/08/14/the-truth-about-bbc-a...

Guess you were too busy with your opinionated columns to look at the video marked as a reference.

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#35

Post by thooranpoyi »

InfinityByTen wrote: post #19

BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 ] Also the other protest accepted by I…

BBC is anti India. I do not trust any news by BBC about India.

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#36

Post by m0llusk »

chewbacha wrote: post #18
m0llusk wrote: post #9

Liberties are certainly an issue. By shutting down media and networks people are being stripped of their visibility. This is being done to avoid responsibility for currently actions being taken. Not being able to openly discuss what you are doing is a clear sign you shouldn't be doing that.

Wouldn’t freedom of assembly, speech, and press be grouped into liberties?

Yes, but simply being visible is even more basic. Rendering someone invisible is an attack upon their person that goes beyond limiting their liberty.

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#37

Post by gfgvybhfft »

Western double standards at play again. There were more than 50k people died because of Pakistan sponsored and controlled terrorism in India. Native populations of Kashmiri Pandits have been cleansed out because of their religion. Kashmir was an integral part of India and will remain so.

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#38

Post by slake »

icsllaf wrote: post #16
whydoyoucare wrote: post #15

Unfortunately, the issue requires a significant historical context, which is carefully stripped from most of these media articles to control the narrative. :-/

Do you really need context when a country is stripping its citizens of the right of communication, movement, and religion?

Religion? Thought you'd just sneak that past huh? How did India deny the right of religion? A temporary shutdown of communication, movement for public safety can be argued as justified for an area that's historically prone to violence resulting in loss of life and property. Kashmiri's themselves have lost the most in this Pakistan inspired violence.

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#39

Post by fellellor »

icsllaf wrote: post #16
whydoyoucare wrote: post #15

Unfortunately, the issue requires a significant historical context, which is carefully stripped from most of these media articles to control the narrative. :-/

Do you really need context when a country is stripping its citizens of the right of communication, movement, and religion?

40 people ended up dead in the aftermath of killing of the terrorist leader, Burhan Wani, when there were no curbs of speech and assembly.

Right now, the number of casualties stand at 0 [7].

Article 370, was a discriminatory law which treated everyone but the Sunni Muslim males of the valley, as second class citizens.

Kashmir and it's political elite did nothing with the autonomy, and left the state in a more backward legal condition than India, where the law has at least (painfully) slowly evolved to decriminalise homosexuality, yielded greater property rights to women, and provide (controversial) affirmative action to disadvantaged sections of the population, among other things. Not to mention, democratic institutions governing elections, and investigating corruption have also been established, but not in Kashmir because of 370.

Instead the elites have only used their autonomy to provide cover to terrorists, create corrupt patronage networks, dodged investigative agencies building anti-corruption cases, enable nepotistic official appointments etc [6].

In spite of these things, the valley's Muslim population supports 370, because they have significantly bought into radical Islamic ideology, to the extent that their struggle against India is now religious and seeks to establish an Islamic state, rather than freedom from India for ethnic Kashmiris (which only is only around 60% Sunni Muslim and the rest include Buddhists, Shias - who are in favour of 370 abrogation, Hindus, Jains and Sikhs).

Their most popular slogan, which you can also hear in the video released by BBC is:

"Hum kya chahte? Azaadi! Azaadi ka matlab kya? La illaha il allah!"

which translates to ~>

"What do we want? Freedom! What does freedom mean? There is no god but Allah!"

In that video you can also hear them chanting the names of killed ISIS and Al Qaeda leaders and you can see people carrying ISIS and Jaish-e-Mohammed flags.

In my opinion, any action taken by the government to eliminate these guys is fully justified, and any ground ceded to them will only result in more escalation of the conflict. See the current US negotiation with Taliban amidst daily attacks, suicide bombings and no ceasefire [4], [5]. Islamist tactics are the same everywhere, especially in this case, since they have both been supported by Pakistan.

[1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38454483

[2]: https://www.bolantimes.com/pakistan-armed-forces-have-allege...

[3]: https://www.dawn.com/news/1150066

[4]: https://thediplomat.com/2019/08/why-are-the-taliban-reluctan...

[5]: https://time.com/5645984/afghanistan-taliban-suicide-car-bom...

[6]: https://www.lawfareblog.com/indias-move-kashmir-unpacking-do...

[7]: https://twitter.com/BDUTT/status/1161969318088699904

Re: In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

#40

Post by InfinityByTen »

ignoramous wrote: post #25
InfinityByTen wrote: post #19

BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 ] Also the other protest accepted by I…

I think you would agree that you're assessing the situation with a whole lot of bias. > Lockdown in a terrorist, separatist and rebel location is a security measure more than a curbing of Freedom of speech This is harsh. One could equally argue that the Hindustani and Pakistani governments are terrorizing the Kashmir valley, with their security measures and counter-measures. There's more to this issue than misplaced…

You are absolutely correct that there are nuances, which is exactly what I wanted to bring to fore. There is politics, terror and even economics: both strategic, in the region and hidden in terms of the weaponry.

Thus, desperate times, desperate situations, desperate measures. If you feel it is harsh, I prompt you to consider the case when separatists would use the means to spread rumours, fake news and instigate mobs. We know that they are capable of that and the scrapping of these bills signifies essentially a stop to their powers. Better to nip it in the bud than starting violent protests which need more physical force to keep the law and order intact.

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