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Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

sydney.edu.au

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Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, you could say the same thing about feeling pain in humans. Once the danger/injury source passes then being in pain is not good, particularly chronic pain that actually inhibits the person. We still have that though.

I could speculate at least 2 reasons for persistent pain. Before medicine, if you broke a limb, it was likely not as functional / strong as before. Long term pain is probably a good reminder to be careful about it. Also since we can form complex relations in memory, it's potentially useful as "remember how you thought you could do this thing? well, you couldn't, so don't try it again." I think for people the equation…

The article says the pain causes the fly to protect its other five legs, as though it has learned from losing one leg that losing legs is a thing that might happen again. It's feeling the pain in those legs, not the place where the one was removed.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#33
All the comments discussing the moral implications of harming insects are focusing on the wrong part of how useful this information is.

As the link says, this research indicates that we can use insects to do basic research on Neuropathic pain. Insects, being easy and fast to breed, and easy to manage in large quantities, makes this especially useful for research.

Now they can try all sorts of methods of tackling the problem, from drugs to gene therapy.

It's not, of course, proof that successes will translate to mammal or human models, but it's an excellent way to do some initial concept filtering.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#34
post #19

Is this a surprise? Dogs and cats, being injured, show that they feel it and are sensitive to others touching where they hurt. Is it really that 'weird' to think that beings other than mammals would have this?

It's a valid question, not sure why it's downvoted. There are also some good answers here, which is the point of discussion.

The article isn't about "whether the insect feels pain", but about the longevity of that pain and the surprisingly non-locality of the increase in their pain, both happening after the injury. Comments that are focussed on "why are we so species-centrist to find it surprising that an insect would feel pain" are just, well, painfully off-topic.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#35
post #2

Well, this makes being faithful to my ethical commitments a little more complicated.

This morning I spent 20 minutes trying to hunt down a spider near my desk at home. I didn't want to clear all the wires and papers and hardware on the desk, and the spider used those to juke around me and my big napkin. Eventually I left and surfed the net on my phone; when I came back an hour later it was nowhere to be seen. But I was absolutely prepared to murder it the moment I got a chance.

On the other hand, I've been dabbling with hydroponics. Most suggestions say to plant 2-3 seeds per growing block, so that you are protected against the risk of seeds not sprouting. If multiple seeds sprout, you just snip the tiny seedlings and leave the biggest, hardiest one to grow. A few days ago I killed 3 small seedlings and felt incredibly guilty. About a third of the way to crying over it. Next time I will only plant one seed per spot, even though that means I will get average plants instead of big ones, and it will take longer to replant seeds that don't sprout. The feeling of killing those beautiful young plants was just too much to bear.

On the other hand I have never felt bad for the millions of plants that have died to feed me.

Nature is a dog-eat-dog world. Ultimately we've got to kill to survive and to have a livable habitat. I had seen the spider I was hunting this morning walking around my window a few times over the last few weeks, but I left it alone until it bothered me. Sure, it's sad to kill another living being, but spiders are much less conscious than us and we've got to eventually rationalize the fact that a human is worth thousands of plants and spiders and bugs (if not, then the only logical action would be to commit suicide, unless you dedicated your life to saving plants and spiders and bugs). Even if you don't kill them directly, you do so indirectly by participating in our modern economy.

Tldr it sucks, too bad :(

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#36
Duh. This feels like a topic that the scientific community has a bizarre and self serving view of. There’s no reason to think insects don’t feel pain, which is a basic evolutionary mechanism. So why the need to scrutinize the topic? Because of the need to defend a long line of justifications made throughout the decades as to why humans should be able to treat other beings poorly and still consider ourselves “moral”.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#37
post #2

Well, this makes being faithful to my ethical commitments a little more complicated.

This morning I spent 20 minutes trying to hunt down a spider near my desk at home. I didn't want to clear all the wires and papers and hardware on the desk, and the spider used those to juke around me and my big napkin. Eventually I left and surfed the net on my phone; when I came back an hour later it was nowhere to be seen. But I was absolutely prepared to murder it the moment I got a chance. On the other hand, I'v…

I don't understand why plants are particularly relevant to this equation. Your sentimentality for the young plants is irrelevant to whether or not they can suffer.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#38

All the comments discussing the moral implications of harming insects are focusing on the wrong part of how useful this information is. As the link says, this research indicates that we can use insects to do basic research on Neuropathic pain. Insects, being easy and fast to breed, and easy to manage in large quantities, makes this especially useful for research. Now they can try all sorts of methods of tackling the…

Nice going there bug Dr. Mengele.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This morning I spent 20 minutes trying to hunt down a spider near my desk at home. I didn't want to clear all the wires and papers and hardware on the desk, and the spider used those to juke around me and my big napkin. Eventually I left and surfed the net on my phone; when I came back an hour later it was nowhere to be seen. But I was absolutely prepared to murder it the moment I got a chance. On the other hand, I'v…

I don't understand why plants are particularly relevant to this equation. Your sentimentality for the young plants is irrelevant to whether or not they can suffer.

The parent was commenting that knowing that insects feel pain has made it harder for him to act in a way that feels ethical.

I suggested that we need to just believe that we are more important than those dumb(er) lifeforms, but we should still avoid unnecessary killing whenever possible. Like not killing bugs/spiders unless they are actually annoying you, and not planting so many plants that you'll need to kill the extra ones.

I guess the plant example also showed that our sense of morality can be very illogical - the parent has qualms over hurting bugs, I really disliked killing plants needlessly, yet we all go and eat vegetables (and meat) every day, and our society has committed many, many genocides to nonhuman species.

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