Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#31

Post by cortesoft » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #15

inlined wrote: post #4

1. How much cost is really involved in keeping up the DRM server in maintenance mode on Azure? 2. Maybe this will give the EFF enough case study to argue (successfully, finally) that the DMCA allows corporations to create rules that violate other existing laws such as the right of first sale.

The right sale doctrine doesn’t apply to products like these; these are licenses to use. If they were first sale doctrine products, you could sell your goods on secondary markets, which you cannot.

So does the first sale doctrine not have any teeth at all? What is to stop companies from throwing a license on everything they sell, making the first sale doctrine meaningless?

Could a bookseller add a license to a physical book, and suddenly you can't sell it or lend it out?

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#32

Post by acd » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

The planet is on fire because we consume to much stuff. We should have the right to repair things we own. Corporate lobbying is not in the general democratic interest of the people and should be forbidden.

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#33

Post by dabockster » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #15

inlined wrote: post #4

1. How much cost is really involved in keeping up the DRM server in maintenance mode on Azure? 2. Maybe this will give the EFF enough case study to argue (successfully, finally) that the DMCA allows corporations to create rules that violate other existing laws such as the right of first sale.

The right sale doctrine doesn’t apply to products like these; these are licenses to use. If they were first sale doctrine products, you could sell your goods on secondary markets, which you cannot.

Forget sale doctrines, DRM effectively prevents a consumer from leaving to a competing service. It seems to me to be more of a matter of antitrust law since it gives a company way too much control over how a consumer, well, consumes.

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#34

Post by blueadept111 » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

The dark side of physical books: sometimes you buy a book and then you lose it.

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#35

Post by inlined » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

olliej wrote: post #28

It’s not the dark side, it’s the designed in primary side. The ability to view drm’d content is almost just an optional side benefit. I still think legislation should require any product sold with a buy/purchase button should be required to continue functioning even if the “product” is shut down.

That’s what’s so infuriating about DRM. Lawyers may argue that we clicked OK to some fine print somewhere, but the product is advertised as something you buy, not something you lease. That’s why I feel like the right of first sale should be legally protected.

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#36

Post by deogeo » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #15

inlined wrote: post #4

1. How much cost is really involved in keeping up the DRM server in maintenance mode on Azure? 2. Maybe this will give the EFF enough case study to argue (successfully, finally) that the DMCA allows corporations to create rules that violate other existing laws such as the right of first sale.

The right sale doctrine doesn’t apply to products like these; these are licenses to use. If they were first sale doctrine products, you could sell your goods on secondary markets, which you cannot.

But did they use the word 'buy' in their online store? Did they list the item as 'book title' instead of 'book title license'?

I'm sure there's a "licensed, not sold" line buried somewhere in the EULA, but why would that take precedence over the prominently-displayed "buy"? Is the "buy" a lie? If so, how is a consumer supposed to know which statements are lies and which are not? For all they know, the EULA could be the lying one.

This is all from a US point of view - Europe has disallowed using such shenanigans to rob consumers of their rights: https://www.theverge.com/2012/7/3/3134867/eu-court-of-justic...

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#37

Post by behringer » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

blueadept111 wrote: post #34

The dark side of physical books: sometimes you buy a book and then you lose it.

Sometimes Barnes & Noble break and enter my house and take off with my bookshelves.

Oh wait, nevermind, that's never actually happened.

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#38

Post by dabockster » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #11

pjmlp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or never buy DRM books to start with. I own a Kindle, however I only buy ebooks from stores that offer epub and PDF as well. At max with watermarks.

Any recommendations for such stores? I know of https://www.downpour.com for audio books and I get all my audio books from them since they are DRM-free. Would love to know of such a service for ebooks, but for fiction.

If you live in the US and have a library card, try Overdrive. You can check out a huge catalog of eBooks for essentially free (since it’s paid via your local library).

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#39

Post by nitrogen » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

0815test wrote: post #22

bad_user wrote: post #14

For audio books I buy only from Downpour.com because they are DRM-free. Any recommendations for a site selling DRM-FREE ebooks for fiction?

Fiction? What's wrong with just perusing gutenberg.org for that. If you really care about paying them for the e-books, they do take donations.

Some genres and themes have to be current to be enjoyable, and since the authors are living it's worth supporting them. So Gutenberg is awesome, but not sufficient for one's full literary diet.

Re: Microsoft's eBook Apocalypse Shows the Dark Side of DRM

#40

Post by thejenk » Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

It doesn't make sense to me that eBook retailers can claim they're selling licences to view books, instead of the books themselves. If I were to look for 1984 for a kindle, I'd:

1. Search Amazon for "1984 George Orwell" 2. Select the first option (paperback) 3. See the "Format" selector 4. Select the kindle edition 5. Click "Buy with one-click"

Notably, between 4 and 5, reading the entire page gives no indication that the kindle format is fundamentally different from the paperback in regards to who actually owns the copy after purchase.

There may be a notice buried in a EULA that you agree to when setting the device up, but it may be hard to argue that it means they can tell you at the time of purchase they're selling you a book while actually selling you a licence.