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Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#31

Post by [deleted] »

netmonk wrote: post #30
deogeo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has nothing to do with nationalism A nation is just a larger tribe - people are more closely related to others in their own nation, than to those in foreign nations.

"people are more closely related to others in their own nation, than to those in foreign nations." Thank you mister Obvious. But the first part of your sentence just serves your desires by an over-simplification and reduction of the topic. No, a nation is not a larger tribe. Just try to explain all the atrocities which happened in Africa since colonialists retired from the continent. Try to keep several tribes inside…

[deleted]

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#32

Post by ecocentrik »

redm wrote: post #17

Nationalism is an extension of tribalism which is inherited in human beings, it's in our DNA [1]. We, as a species, may override our instincts to do what we feel is better for humanity, but then again humanity is just a larger tribe. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/life-is-trip/201208/... [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-emotional-footpr...

We've seen nations grow beyond the bounds of tribal/regional origins into ethnically diverse multicultural and multilingual economic powerhouses. The US and most European countries are good examples of this. As long as a lingua franca remains mostly dominant and people acclimate to others acting differently around them, it's a perfectly natural state. Ancient Rome and Ancient China both prospered economically under these conditions. Nationalism in all it's incarnations has historically been an attempt to reassert tribal balance in favor of some formerly dominant but now sub-dominant group and it rarely ends well for that group.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#33

Post by deogeo »

netmonk wrote: post #30
deogeo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has nothing to do with nationalism A nation is just a larger tribe - people are more closely related to others in their own nation, than to those in foreign nations.

"people are more closely related to others in their own nation, than to those in foreign nations." Thank you mister Obvious. But the first part of your sentence just serves your desires by an over-simplification and reduction of the topic. No, a nation is not a larger tribe. Just try to explain all the atrocities which happened in Africa since colonialists retired from the continent. Try to keep several tribes inside…

Why does treating a nation as an extended tribe require explaining atrocities in Africa?

If someone claimed a tribe is an extended family, would you demand he explain family feuds?

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#34

Post by netmonk »

deogeo wrote: post #33
netmonk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"people are more closely related to others in their own nation, than to those in foreign nations." Thank you mister Obvious. But the first part of your sentence just serves your desires by an over-simplification and reduction of the topic. No, a nation is not a larger tribe. Just try to explain all the atrocities which happened in Africa since colonialists retired from the continent. Try to keep several tribes inside…

Why does treating a nation as an extended tribe require explaining atrocities in Africa? If someone claimed a tribe is an extended family, would you demand he explain family feuds?

Because when the central power which designed the border and defined them as a nation, is going away, old tribal tension and conflict are resurging. Leading to inter-tribe genocide. Therefore, tribalism has nothing to do with nationalism... :)

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#35

Post by PavlovsCat »

deogeo wrote: post #27
PavlovsCat wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As man advances in civilisation, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all the members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races. If, indeed,…

> It has been asserted that the ear of man alone possesses a lobule; but 'a rudiment of it is found in the gorilla' and, as I hear from Prof. Preyer, it is not rarely absent in the negro. > The sense of smell is of the highest importance to the greater number of mammals--to some, as the ruminants, in warning them of danger; to others, as the Carnivora, in finding their prey; to others, again, as the wild boar, for bo…

Yes, and? Quoting a person doesn't mean blanket agreement to anything else they said, it's usually more about agreeing with the quote.

As for Einstein, it would be a pity if any "race" would supplant all others.. do you disagree? How is that some kind of "gotcha" quote in your mind?

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#36

Post by PavlovsCat »

netmonk wrote: post #22
PavlovsCat wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No political views of Einstein are even mentioned, they're kinda besides the point here. Even if they weren't, many things Einstein said or wrote aren't considered insightful because he was "good at being a physicist", but because they are valuable and insightful in their own right, and often beautifully put. There should be some kind of Godwin's law for mentioning Einstein, and the "just because he was a good physic…

This is a very common habit of our modern propaganda, to use the position of an expert in very narrow field as an authoritarian position to promote political agenda... Moreover, dead cannot speak, and it's very easier to use them for this.

> This is a very common habit of our modern propaganda, to use the position of an expert in very narrow field as an authoritarian position to promote political agenda

Examples? I can't think of any. But I know the article isn't one, so why even bring up what is supposedly "common"?

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#37

Post by toufka »

netmonk wrote: post #22
PavlovsCat wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No political views of Einstein are even mentioned, they're kinda besides the point here. Even if they weren't, many things Einstein said or wrote aren't considered insightful because he was "good at being a physicist", but because they are valuable and insightful in their own right, and often beautifully put. There should be some kind of Godwin's law for mentioning Einstein, and the "just because he was a good physic…

This is a very common habit of our modern propaganda, to use the position of an expert in very narrow field as an authoritarian position to promote political agenda... Moreover, dead cannot speak, and it's very easier to use them for this.

Except in this case, Einstein very much was a philosopher in addition to a physicist. His philosophical writings weren’t as stand-out as his physics, but they weren’t shabby either. He was offered the job of the first leader of Israel, not because he was a great physicist, but because he thought deeply about philosophical and political issues.

He did write quite a bit in his own contemplated voice in these subjects. It is true though that a reinterpretation of his voice can become problematic.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#39

Post by deogeo »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #35
deogeo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has been asserted that the ear of man alone possesses a lobule; but 'a rudiment of it is found in the gorilla' and, as I hear from Prof. Preyer, it is not rarely absent in the negro. > The sense of smell is of the highest importance to the greater number of mammals--to some, as the ruminants, in warning them of danger; to others, as the Carnivora, in finding their prey; to others, again, as the wild boar, for bo…

Yes, and? Quoting a person doesn't mean blanket agreement to anything else they said, it's usually more about agreeing with the quote. As for Einstein, it would be a pity if any "race" would supplant all others.. do you disagree? How is that some kind of "gotcha" quote in your mind?

The implied logic is "This person was Great, and said X, therefore X is Good". It is only fair to point out this can be used to support the almost polar opposite of the quote you chose.

I mean, people should make up their own minds, instead of being swayed by authority, no?

And the Einstein quote wasn't aimed at 'any' race - it was aimed specifically at the Chinese. The implication being that being supplanted by the Chinese is worse than if by some other race.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#40

Post by elefanten »

deogeo wrote: post #39
PavlovsCat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and? Quoting a person doesn't mean blanket agreement to anything else they said, it's usually more about agreeing with the quote. As for Einstein, it would be a pity if any "race" would supplant all others.. do you disagree? How is that some kind of "gotcha" quote in your mind?

The implied logic is "This person was Great, and said X, therefore X is Good". It is only fair to point out this can be used to support the almost polar opposite of the quote you chose. I mean, people should make up their own minds, instead of being swayed by authority, no? And the Einstein quote wasn't aimed at 'any' race - it was aimed specifically at the Chinese. The implication being that being supplanted by the…

The implied logic you name is actually your presumed logic. I certainly don't read that logic into every time someone uses a quote.

Quotes can be used to show that past generations have said similar or relevant things

Quotes can be used because they were interestingly or eloquently phrased

Quotes can evoke someone's connection to a subject without relying on an appeal to authority.

Probably the last thing I'd assume is that someone is seriously positing the quality of an argument based on who said it. Such a logic would probably be expressed explicitly if it was key to the message.

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