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Web Programming Is Hard

shubharamani.com

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Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#31

Post by newobj »

grayhairmomma wrote: post #19
newobj wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. But as someone who's conducted hundreds of developer interviews, I can say it's absolutely a huge red flag for me. Total failure would be a straight no-hire. I see it as something that should be very easily re-derivable. You certainly will encounter harder things that you need to invent (not just re-invent) during the course of any job.

Well, I guess you'd never hire me then. Which is OK. I can't be anything but honest. Sorry. It's who I am.

I really have a hard time believing that coming from a C/C++/embedded background you couldn't whip up something reasonably workable (linked list) in 15 minutes on a whiteboard. It's usually the people that have gone on to become "architecture astronauts" who can't do it, or the people who could never do it in the first place. I mean it's as much a test of passion as a test of competence. You can see that certain people are physically pained by writing code. They just don't enjoy it and want it to stop. Other people are engaged and clearly want to produce something. Even if their result isn't perfect. If they are verbalizing something relatable as they get stuck on the same stupid ha-duh mistakes you get stuck on when you do your own job day in an day out. For the people who I think are exceptional, this should be refreshing to them, almost nostalgic. No need to worry about browser compatibility of your linked list, no need to worry about its latency, its availability, making a mobile version of it, etc etc etc. It should just be "I haven't done anything this uncomplicated in a long time." Maybe you should just bust out notepad (no compiling!) and try it and time yourself. Without the pressure of someone staring you down, maybe you'll surprise yourself.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#32

Post by rchiba »

grayhairmomma wrote: post #23
nathanwdavis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one thing: get to know HTTP. Even a basic understanding will prevent you from making costly mistakes.

Great advice, all. The HTTP protocol skill is something I didn't even consider.

ATM Machine. PIN Number. HTTP Protocol.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#33

Post by jemfinch »

grayhairmomma wrote: post #12
newobj wrote: post #8

First, she thought implementing a linked list during an interview was hard. Then, she says that web programming is hard. And I'm not saying it's "easy", but talk about blogging yourself into a professional grave?

I never said linked lists were hard. I said that it's not necessary to know how to reverse a linked list from memory -- from scratch. I can look it up and get to it right away.

It may not be necessary, but a competent developer should be able to do it in their sleep with one hand tied behind their back. If a candidate finds it difficult to do so, that's a really bad sign that they'll find the necessary things difficult as well.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#34

Post by mechanical_fish »

dboyd wrote: post #22
mechanical_fish wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like maintaining a skyscraper built out of Tinker Toys. What I wonder is: Does the following sentence run through the head of every expert in every field? Man, I really shouldn't be getting paid for this. Any idiot could [do X]. It certainly felt true of most of my day-to-day work in graduate semiconductor electronics. It felt true of a lot of biology research. My conclusion is that there are a mere handful of d…

"It's like maintaining a skyscraper built out of Tinker Toys." Actually, it's like maintaining a skyscraper built from steel, concrete and glass integrated with complex HVAC, plumbing, electrical and elevator systems.

This is also true. But it's a question of levels of abstraction. The skyscraper is built out of (in part) a plumbing system, the plumbing system is built (in part) out of pipes, and assembling pipes is like assembling Tinker Toys. Which is why we give a five-year-old aspiring plumber a set of Tinker Toys to learn with. [1]

But this is only a few years after the web was invented, and the average website is still sufficiently ad hoc that the Tinker Toy level is a lot more visible.

---

[1] Break any human-designed system down far enough and you'll often arrive at something as simple as a Tinker Toy. Although, of course, Tinker Toys are not that simple, so this fact may not help as much as you'd think. And this is not true of all systems: In metallurgy, the "simple" parts are atoms, quantum mechanics is not like Tinker Toys, and even if it was nobody has experience with a Tinker Toy set containing 10^28 pieces.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#35

Post by evilduck »

grayhairmomma wrote: post #19
newobj wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. But as someone who's conducted hundreds of developer interviews, I can say it's absolutely a huge red flag for me. Total failure would be a straight no-hire. I see it as something that should be very easily re-derivable. You certainly will encounter harder things that you need to invent (not just re-invent) during the course of any job.

Well, I guess you'd never hire me then. Which is OK. I can't be anything but honest. Sorry. It's who I am.

When encountering problems where I have to derive the answer without a crutch, I solve most by thinking how to solve them either through native language or spatial movement of object, then translating into code.

How would you reverse the order of charms on a bracelet? Any time a step isn't clear, break it down further.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#36

Post by iamwil »

It's not the sort of thing we should have pride in--that web programming is hard. For me, it goes to show that web front-end programming has a long way to go to make it better for developers.

We're still looking for X to do to front end web programming that Rails did for back end web programming.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#37

Post by grayhairmomma »

r00k wrote: post #28
grayhairmomma wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess you'd never hire me then. Which is OK. I can't be anything but honest. Sorry. It's who I am.

Couldn't you learn this concept, grow as a programmer, and become more hirable in the process? It seems like you've decided you're not capable of teaching yourself through it.

Of course it's doable. Like I said on my website, I need to get off my ass and start coding up linked lists, binary search trees and sorts "til I fucking throw up all over Manhattan". Yes, of course it's doable. I'm no dummy. I can stumble through it on the whiteboard as well -- I'm not deaf, dumb and clueless -- I don't just stand there at the whiteboard listlessly, with blank stares, if that's what you mean. If I practice enough, reciting from memory (and on the whiteboard), coding the stuff up perfectly will be trivial. But to me, that's gaming the interview.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#38

Post by mcantor »

patio11 wrote: post #2

I periodically think "Man, I really shouldn't be getting paid for this. Any idiot could stick these two APIs together." In my more sensible moments, I remember that that idiot only needed to know HTML, CSS, the DOM model, Javascript, jQuery, HTTP (mostly headers and status codes), Ruby, Rails, basic MVC design, Oauth, SQL, SQL performance, five-ish APIs to support the two that needed integration, how to configure and…

I bet 90% of the time, any "expert" is working on things that any idiot can do. But that isn't why people pay experts!

I think experts are paid so much because of the other 10% of the time. When convoluted edge conditions have made a mockery of all things abstract and sensible, they are capable of diving into the black boxes and figuring out what's really going on to save the day.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#39

Post by andywood »

dasil003 wrote: post #9

As a web developer I appreciate the concession from an embedded systems programmer that I am in fact not simply a monkey, but the quoted section probably goes a bit too far. For instance, terrible UIs on the web are just as common as terrible UIs in GUI applications. And making a cross-platform GUI application that looks good on all platforms requires familiarity with tools specific to each platform, which is much mo…

I did C and C++ programming for more than 10 years, before suddenly delving into serious web development only 3 years ago. I soon realized that I had vastly underestimated how deeply technical web development is.

But the reason was simply that I had formed my opinion back in ~1998, when "web development" really did mean just HTML, and maybe some roll-over script, most of the time! Being a systems programmer, I simply never had occasion to update my perception, as "web development" dramatically evolved while I wasn't looking.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#40

Post by [deleted] »

grayhairmomma wrote: post #12
newobj wrote: post #8

First, she thought implementing a linked list during an interview was hard. Then, she says that web programming is hard. And I'm not saying it's "easy", but talk about blogging yourself into a professional grave?

I never said linked lists were hard. I said that it's not necessary to know how to reverse a linked list from memory -- from scratch. I can look it up and get to it right away.

[deleted]
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