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Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

topgear.com

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Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#31

Post by rootusrootus »

jdhn wrote: post #22
rootusrootus wrote: post #6

I just rented a P3D a couple weeks ago for a weekend, and I agree with the review, it would spank an M3. Hell, it would even spank my Camaro. But it's not a driver's car. Steering is numb, handling is competent but it's a very heavy car, seats are disapointing as hell. I was impressed, but not enough to drop 60 grand. And to be honest, between an M3 and a P3D, I'd probably still choose the M3. It really, really depen…

I'm not surprised it would spank a Camaro, the Tesla is AWD while the Camaro is RWD. Shame to hear about the seats though, I'd think that Tesla would put in some Recaros at least to give it more of a sporty feel.

I mean I think it might even take my Camaro on a road course, and my car is no slouch at the track. In a straight line it's no contest. The handling on my Camaro is very sharp (it's a 1LE), definitely a step up on the Tesla, but the ability of the electric motor to put down full torque at any time is a pretty significant advantage.

Seats were by far my biggest gripe. Took a while just to find an adjustment that didn't make my lower legs go numb. They have almost no lateral support, and the bottom cushion is fairly short -- my legs were overhanging by a good six inches or so. That pressure point at the front edge is most likely why I was getting the tingling.

It's so easy to contract with Recaro for seats, but Tesla really wants to be vertically integrated. They've improved the seats already at least once on the Model 3, and a couple times on the Model S, so I'm hoping that the Model Y will be comfortable.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#32

Post by jdeibele »

dplgk wrote: post #25
rootusrootus wrote: post #6

I just rented a P3D a couple weeks ago for a weekend, and I agree with the review, it would spank an M3. Hell, it would even spank my Camaro. But it's not a driver's car. Steering is numb, handling is competent but it's a very heavy car, seats are disapointing as hell. I was impressed, but not enough to drop 60 grand. And to be honest, between an M3 and a P3D, I'd probably still choose the M3. It really, really depen…

I'm only aware of Model S, 3, X and Y. What's P3D?

P = performance 3 = model 3 D = dual motor (all wheel drive)

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#34

Post by GordonS »

soared wrote: post #2

Does anyone trust topgear for actual reviews, especially when tesla is involved? The courts literally ruled that you shouldn't: > Mr Justice Tugendhat said that no Top Gear viewer would have reasonably compared the car's performance on the show's airfield track to its likely performance on a public road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_controversies#Tesla_R...

Clarkson and co haven't been involved with Top Gear for a while now - even before that though, the Top Gear website has always been much more "sensible" than the TV show. TBH, it always felt completely separate.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#35

Post by rootusrootus »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #21
rootusrootus wrote: post #6

I just rented a P3D a couple weeks ago for a weekend, and I agree with the review, it would spank an M3. Hell, it would even spank my Camaro. But it's not a driver's car. Steering is numb, handling is competent but it's a very heavy car, seats are disapointing as hell. I was impressed, but not enough to drop 60 grand. And to be honest, between an M3 and a P3D, I'd probably still choose the M3. It really, really depen…

If you're going to track it, you're not going to mind ripping out the seats and putting something more sporty in with a five point harness. The vehicle is heavier, but adjusting to it would be similar (IMHO) to adjusting to sports cars with a mid engine layout.

If you want a dedicated track car, a Model 3 is a pretty expensive way to get there, and I'm not entirely sure how you'd have a good track day with all the recharging you'd have to stop for.

If you want a street car that you can track, you might swap in Recaros (I've done it...) but you do give up an airbag or two. Five-point harnesses are bad news on a street car, I definitely recommend against that.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#36

Post by tosser0001 »

jak92 wrote: post #33

These super fast cars are a threat to life and safety in urban environments. EV or not, these fast vehicles should not be sold as these speeds do not serve any valid purpose.

I just came here to say something similar. It drives me nuts that this sort of power and performance is let loose on public streets.

At some point I would think we'd be able to have some sort of geofencing system were a car would be forced into "golf cart" mode once it's off the highway.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#37

Post by theluketaylor »

Silhouette wrote: post #16
Judgmentality wrote: post #8

I admittedly haven't watched the video yet (although I plan to and will update my comment), but as someone who really wants to love an EV, the technology just isn't there for me yet. The range is not nearly enough for me. Yes, 300 miles is not enough. Just this weekend I drove between LA and SF twice, and while I had to stop and get gas it took me 5 minutes instead of however long it would take me to charge the car e…

I agree with the basic sentiment that EVs have potential but aren't quite there yet. One issue that I've seen raised a few times now is how honest the environmental credentials of these EVs really are. Sure, you aren't emitting pollution from your petrol/diesel engine as you drive. However, you have the emissions from whatever electricity source you use for charging instead, which obviously depends on how environment…

This is a common argument, but I think it's a great example of perfect being the enemy of good for a couple of reasons.

1) Cars (especially diesels) emit far more particulates and carbon in real world driving conditions compared to idealized testing. The sort of stop and go, light to light driving we do on a daily basis running errands while the engine is cold is the worst edge case for an internal combustion engine. It's also the sort of driving EVs really shine at, since a big chunk of the energy spent getting up to speed is recaptured during regen braking and sitting idle uses no energy.

2) CO2 scrubbing, heat recapture and other techniques to reduce emissions are far more practical and economical at grid scale. Mandating better emissions on cars only affects new sales, but new rules for power stations can be retroactive.

3) EVs get cleaner as the grid does. ICE cars only get worse at emissions over their lifespan. The shift to EVs is really a two pronged approach, with improvements to the grid as another major focus.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#38

Post by Silhouette »

heartofgold wrote: post #23
Silhouette wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the basic sentiment that EVs have potential but aren't quite there yet. One issue that I've seen raised a few times now is how honest the environmental credentials of these EVs really are. Sure, you aren't emitting pollution from your petrol/diesel engine as you drive. However, you have the emissions from whatever electricity source you use for charging instead, which obviously depends on how environment…

If you want to look at it that way, you also should include the emissions/environment impact included in acquiring the oil, building refineries, the emissions during the refinery process, and the shipment of the fuel around the country. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/electric-car-well-to-wh... And with electric cars, the ongoing CO2 emissions can be limited by where you get your charge. If you have solar for ex…

If you want to look at it that way, you also should include the emissions/environment impact included in acquiring the oil, building refineries, the emissions during the refinery process, and the shipment of the fuel around the country.

Yes, we should.

As I said, so far it looks like the jury is still out. The problem with many of these reports, including much of last week's commentary on the study I mentioned and also including the source you linked to in the parent comment, is that the popular summaries are often light on key details so it's hard to make meaningful like-for-like comparisons based on the available reporting alone. And so far, it has often been remarkably difficult to track down and evaluate the primary sources behind a lot of these reports, on both sides.

It's also worth observing that some of these claims aren't necessarily contradictory. It's certainly conceivable (without seeing more data to confirm either way) that the average petrol/diesel vehicle in the US is relatively big and inefficient compared to those in say Europe or Japan. Meanwhile, the environmental impact of an EV is going to depend on how environmentally friendly the energy supplies ultimately used for charging are, which apparently varies dramatically across the US based on your linked source, and presumably varies elsewhere as well.

If our national power grids and/or local microgeneration facilities at homes and offices continue to move towards more environmentally friendly sources, and if the environmental costs of the batteries do not increase significantly as more EVs are produced, then it seems reasonable to assume that at some point it would become more environmentally friendly in terms of emissions to use EVs. So far, I see a lot of loaded arguments and cherry-picking from both sides of the debate, which makes it difficult to know whether we have yet passed that point in any given set of circumstances.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#39

Post by [deleted] »

jdhn wrote: post #22
rootusrootus wrote: post #6

I just rented a P3D a couple weeks ago for a weekend, and I agree with the review, it would spank an M3. Hell, it would even spank my Camaro. But it's not a driver's car. Steering is numb, handling is competent but it's a very heavy car, seats are disapointing as hell. I was impressed, but not enough to drop 60 grand. And to be honest, between an M3 and a P3D, I'd probably still choose the M3. It really, really depen…

I'm not surprised it would spank a Camaro, the Tesla is AWD while the Camaro is RWD. Shame to hear about the seats though, I'd think that Tesla would put in some Recaros at least to give it more of a sporty feel.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#40

Post by kitsunesoba »

rootusrootus wrote: post #31
jdhn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised it would spank a Camaro, the Tesla is AWD while the Camaro is RWD. Shame to hear about the seats though, I'd think that Tesla would put in some Recaros at least to give it more of a sporty feel.

I mean I think it might even take my Camaro on a road course, and my car is no slouch at the track. In a straight line it's no contest. The handling on my Camaro is very sharp (it's a 1LE), definitely a step up on the Tesla, but the ability of the electric motor to put down full torque at any time is a pretty significant advantage. Seats were by far my biggest gripe. Took a while just to find an adjustment that didn'…

If I’m not mistaken, seat suppliers specifically were one of the third party suppliers that Tesla got burned on in the past, which was likely the primary driver to vertically integrate them.
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