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Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

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Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#31

Post by 52-6F-62 »

sandoz9 wrote: post #21
bretthopper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think this is a zero-sum game? That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists (and maybe some pedestrians). Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers. If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying thi…

It's not just car drivers, eleven restaurants in the area have closed since the pilot began. What do you do as a business owner when city is driving away your customers?

Those restaurants were already notorious tourist traps. The restaurants in the area that were any good still remain.

Cars driving by those places was not where they got their business. The city didn't reduce parking lot numbers in the area. They got their business from theatre-goers and other foot traffic.

One of the restaurant owners (who I won't name) decided it would be a worthy protest to place a large ice sculpture of a raised middle finger to pedestrians in the area, and the city at large. That came back to bite him in a serious way. He was already a disliked business owner. That seemed to seal it.

He drove his own business away, not the city. Another restaurant in the strip serving similar fare is still kicking... probably because they're not half bad and offer a better environment.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#32

Post by 52-6F-62 »

jgh wrote: post #4

I lived along there (king & bathurst) for a couple of months last winter and thought it was great. Combined with the new street cars along king st it's really pleasant. At the time r/toronto would have people complaining about a lack of pedestrians or whatever (it was -20 every day for like a month) but that didn't really jive with my experience. Even in the really cold nights I found that there were a good number of…

I live right off of King St. west— catch a streetcar along there anywhere bordering rush hour in the past was basically a no-go. You could almost guarantee you didn't arrive on time, and you'd have to plow your way on and off after waiting between 3-5 streetcars in any season. (I thankfully had to catch the 63 north to the subway instead)

Even off peak hours catching a streetcar on King was a nightmare. King St is no wider than any other street in the area so I don't understand the absolute necessity for some drivers to have unbridled access at all hours.

This project made a dramatic difference. It's no longer a major trial to catch a streetcar, and they're no longer late or packed like a sardine tin.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#33

Post by binarycrusader »

hourislate wrote: post #13
blakesterz wrote: post #3

Buffalo tried this a few decades ago and it did NOT work. The entire area died, all the restaurants & retail closed. It took millions of dollars and many years to undo it and now the area is back and full of people. I don't know for sure the blame lies entirely on the clearing of cars idea, but that sure didn't help. The city (like many) fell pretty hard for a bunch of reasons at the time they tried this. https://www…

I have read some of the restaurants along that stretch of road in Toronto have closed or will be closing. They have said business has fallen off the cliff. https://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2018/07/pearl-king-street-t... https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/king-st-pilot-forces-... https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/01/22/king-st-business...

It’s important to not conflate cited causes as some of those owners also blame increases in the minimum wage.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#34

Post by DeBraid »

Walk this street to and from work. I choose to walk on King St. specifically because there are no cars.

Street cars are at capacity during rush hour, which is a clear indicator demand for transit not being met by supply (Toronto has a disgraceful subway system given its size and position as global elite city).

Far more street-level retail/food on King than parallel arteries (3-lane 1 way thoroughfares Adelaide and Richmond). Restaurants with patios on these streets are now second-class destinations relative to car-free King St.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#35

Post by Sharlin »

Dave_TRS wrote: post #8

From Toronto here, and just wanted to clarify that the headline is somewhat misleading in claiming that "it worked". Article begins: > One year after Toronto turned King Street in a transit- and walking-priority street, streetcar ridership, biking and walking are way up. What "worked" is that removing cars did indeed make space for faster streetcars and biking - but this is not surprising, practically a truism! The p…

Did car traffic really just move elsewhere? Reduced demand [1] is just as real an effect as induced demand.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#Reduced_demand_...

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#36

Post by dionidium »

blakesterz wrote: post #3

Buffalo tried this a few decades ago and it did NOT work. The entire area died, all the restaurants & retail closed. It took millions of dollars and many years to undo it and now the area is back and full of people. I don't know for sure the blame lies entirely on the clearing of cars idea, but that sure didn't help. The city (like many) fell pretty hard for a bunch of reasons at the time they tried this. https://www…

It was a popular urban-renewal Hail Mary in the 1970s and 80s. My hometown did it, too, and it was a spectacular failure. [0] Indeed, most of them failed, but I wouldn't read too much into it; a lot of them were done in neighborhoods that were already bleeding people, money, and businesses. It's not a panacea and it's definitely not enough to turn the fortunes of a declining area.

But it can make sense in the opposite kind of neighborhood -- neighborhoods that are growing, that already have a lot of density and foot traffic.

The context matters a lot.

[0] http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/tag/14th-street-pedestrian-mal...

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#37

Post by dionidium »

hourislate wrote: post #13
blakesterz wrote: post #3

Buffalo tried this a few decades ago and it did NOT work. The entire area died, all the restaurants & retail closed. It took millions of dollars and many years to undo it and now the area is back and full of people. I don't know for sure the blame lies entirely on the clearing of cars idea, but that sure didn't help. The city (like many) fell pretty hard for a bunch of reasons at the time they tried this. https://www…

I have read some of the restaurants along that stretch of road in Toronto have closed or will be closing. They have said business has fallen off the cliff. https://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2018/07/pearl-king-street-t... https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/king-st-pilot-forces-... https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/01/22/king-st-business...

You simply cannot trust the reasons people give for going out of business. If there is a visible villain they can blame, they will. Nobody ever says, "look, we just weren't that good," or "we spent too much money," or "we didn't understand the market very well," or "my wife has a cocaine habit and put us in debt," or "we didn't differentiate very well" or any of the thousands of other banal reasons small businesses fail.

If they can say, "it's because of that big new development over there!" or, "it was the street closure!" then that's what they're going to say. It's the story they'll tell their great-great-grandchildren. But who honestly knows? Companies go out of business all the time. That's the default. Keeping a restaurant open is very hard.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#38

Post by wolco »

andruc wrote: post #19
lambersley wrote: post #18

"And it worked" is somewhat of a misnomer. If you asked the hundreds of businesses (bars, cafes, restaurants, etc), they might have a different opinion. Motor vehicles are allowed to travel 1 block then forced to make the next right turn. The human traffic along the corridor has significantly decreased. The businesses are suffering. At minimum, ride-sharing services should be allowed to traverse that corridor unimped…

I suppose you didn't make it to the end? "Toronto reports business receipts are up along the corridor as well, albeit a tiny 0.3 percent" is hardly suffering.

Compared to what growth % in past years?

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#39

Post by [deleted] »

sandoz9 wrote: post #21
bretthopper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think this is a zero-sum game? That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists (and maybe some pedestrians). Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers. If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying thi…

It's not just car drivers, eleven restaurants in the area have closed since the pilot began. What do you do as a business owner when city is driving away your customers?

[deleted]

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#40

Post by mabbo »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #32
jgh wrote: post #4

I lived along there (king & bathurst) for a couple of months last winter and thought it was great. Combined with the new street cars along king st it's really pleasant. At the time r/toronto would have people complaining about a lack of pedestrians or whatever (it was -20 every day for like a month) but that didn't really jive with my experience. Even in the really cold nights I found that there were a good number of…

I live right off of King St. west— catch a streetcar along there anywhere bordering rush hour in the past was basically a no-go. You could almost guarantee you didn't arrive on time, and you'd have to plow your way on and off after waiting between 3-5 streetcars in any season. (I thankfully had to catch the 63 north to the subway instead) Even off peak hours catching a streetcar on King was a nightmare. King St is no…

My commute used to take me from the subway over to Spadina. For three years, I just walked 15 minutes rather than ever bother trying to get a street car. It took far less time to walk.
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