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Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

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Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#31
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government. That's why a lot of Korean people born in Japan gravitate towards less savoury activities. Plus, Japanese took Chinese and Korean women and forced them to become whores or "comfort women" for the Japanese soldiers stationed in the mainland. As recently as 2014…

I already mentioned that Koreans in Japan have obtained a special status that is AFAIK better than any other nationality as a direct result of WW2. As an example of an attempt to rectify things what about this long list of official apologies that are somehow forgotten in this kind of "discussion"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statemen... And you are again being disingenuous with what you care t…

From the very article you are citing :

March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#32
post #19

The Japanese (and Korean) work culture, or at least the external perception thereof is the biggest factor that turns me and others off. Who wants to work most of their life and put in twelve or more hours a day six days a week or more? It's worse than America which is already quite bad and off-putting. I don't know what it is about hard work that people have fetishised, but it's not all that it's cut out to be and fr…

You are generally right, but in the tech sector the work culture is highly variable---I'm saying this as a native Korean having worked for Korean tech companies for a decade, and I have heard similar accounts for Japan. South Korea also enjoys a universal healthcare for everyone; there are mandatory healthcare plans for long-term foreigners as well AFAIK. They do generally have lower tolerance on diversity issues (ev…

Healthcare is a big issue in America for the poor and working class, for white collar professionals it generally isn't nearly as much.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#33
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even o…

Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

Not the parent but same situation. Been here 11 years.

A lot of people can get around without speaking Japanese, but I don’t recommend it. You’ll get a much more meaningful and deeper experience out of living here if you can converse with everyone. Randomly stopping and bullshitting with a bored old guy for an hour can be quite fun!

Sadly the developer pay here is pretty dismal, even more so if you come with US expectations. I’ve mentioned this before when it comes up, but the IT sector has organically migrated to a 10am-7pm schedule, so if you factor in commuting and the inevitable overtime then the only time you get to yourself are weekends. Taking multiple days off is frowned upon, although as a foreigner you get a little leniency because you are probably spending two days flying when you visit family.

That all said, it is an extremely convenient country to live in. Great public transportation, great food, friendly people, low crime rates, social health insurance, etc. I really love the living aspect of Japan.

I have a wife and child, and while I could imagine myself living here indefinitely, career wise it’s a dead end - they have trouble fitting you into their social structure. If you are perfectly happy with being a cog in the wheel (or carry your team on your back), and mostly work to live, then it probably isn’t that bad of a choice. I’d definitely encourage anyone closer to 20 than 40 to give it a shot, living abroad is an amazing experience.

That said, I’ll finally be heading back to the US in a couple months once visas clear. The 40-60 age gap is right in front of me, and retirement is taking a stronger grasp on the mind. Much easier to consider options in a higher paying English speaking developer job.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wikipedia article indicates that as recently as 2007, the Prime Minister of Japan did not believe that the Japanese government seized the comfort women by force[0]. When we riot over Confederate statues, and yet we're ok with their government officials visiting shrines which celebrate war criminals[1]? Of course the United States is not blameless. We gave amnesty to the leaders of Camp 731 in exchange for experim…

You're talking about the Japanese PM, and it's possible to make a case that current and past PMs have been racist. That's not the same as saying that the population in general are racist and Asians are oppressed i.e.: "if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed" So... data that shows that non-Japanese Asians are oppressed in Japan? On top of t…

I don't know about quantitatively worse. But if you look here, a UN rep stated that Japanese racism "primarily affects three groups: national minorities, descendants of former Japanese colonies, and foreigners from other Asian countries"[0]. He also said that racism was "deep and profound." This was in 2005. We're (United States) still trying to get rid of racism, even after the civil rights movement of 1950. Racism doesn't go away after 12 years.

Which goes back to my ORIGINAL POINT which is that if you're a non-Japanese Asian in Japan, you got nothing coming.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Comment...

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#35

To anyone who is thinking about going: you should really go.

If someone were working in Silicon Valley as a permanent resident (not US citizen), and wanted to try working in Japan (say, for a year), could they do that without jeopardizing their ability to go back to the US?

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#36
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stayed and worked as a Lawyer in Japan for a few years, and I wouldn't say it makes a difference whether you want to integrate or not. I would even tend to think that not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by…

Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything.…

>However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new.

In software engineering I've had the same experience with anyone from a rote-learning culture. Software engineering is problem solving. If you can't solve problems, what can you do?

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#37
post #22

I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture. This is probably mostly true for any country one could move, but Japanese is one, if not the hardest language to learn for native English speakers. I do, however, recommend everyone visit! Japan is a beautiful country with a unique culture and has something…

Can you comment on whether racism is still a thing in Japanese society?

I haven’t had any negative experiences based on my race, personally. I’ve never been denied service or anything like that, and I’ve been stopped by a police officer once in 3.5 years (no way to know if that was even racially motivated, either). There is some stereotyping, sure, but I don’t take it negatively. People get some interesting ideas about what is normal in America from movies :)

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#38
post #35

To anyone who is thinking about going: you should really go.

If someone were working in Silicon Valley as a permanent resident (not US citizen), and wanted to try working in Japan (say, for a year), could they do that without jeopardizing their ability to go back to the US?

No.

Technically a year is the limit IIRC but I have heard of issues with even six months away. It's at the discretion of the immigration official as to what constitutes abandonment of your permanent residence.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#39
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even o…

Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

I don't mind answering what I can. Of course the answers are limited by my actual life :-)

Fluent in Japanese: There is a difference between fluency and proficiency. I am very fluent in Japanese. If I want to say something, I open my mouth and the words come out. If someone is talking to me, I understand what they are saying -- unless I don't, in which case I ask them to explain and then I do. I'm not very proficient in Japanese in that the average 10 year old speaks better than me, understands more, etc, etc. I can read relatively well -- street signs, menus, comic books, novels aimed at junior high school students, and I can struggle through a newspaper if I have to. But (and I'm incredibly ashamed to admit this), I can't write a lick. I used to be able to, but I haven't actually done it in so long that I can barely write my own name. Crazy, isn't it?

Discrimination at work: I currently own my own consulting company and do contracts for foreign companies. I'm currently on a very long term contract with a UK company. When I first came to Japan, I intended only to come for 1 year to learn Japanese (ha ha! one year... so naive). I taught English at a high school. I fell in love with Japan and this area and decided to stay. I taught English for 5 years and it was fantastic (highly recommend it to anyone who has the opportunity).

So the only opportunity I've had for discrimination at work was at the school. Keep in mind that I was on a year to year contract and I was an "Assistant Language Teacher", which means that I was on the bottom rung with no career advancement possible. Nothing to do with where I came from, just you need actual teaching credentials to advance ;-). Also in a public high school (where I was teaching), you need to get your teaching license which is ridiculously hard (basically, you need to know everything that is taught in high school for every subject, and you need to have a university level understanding in your specialised subject). I could easily pass the English tests (even the grammar!) and the interviews, but there is no way I could pass the general test (remember, I can't even write my own name!). So there's a filter there and in the history of Shizuoka prefecture there have only been 2 foreigners who have passed the high school teaching license -- both Chinese (I checked). It's actually a dream of mine to pass the license even though I'm too old now to realistically teach in a high school by the time I could pass.

Having said all that, I worked with some magnificent people and I worked with some horrible people. Now, normally I'm not that judgemental about people, but the school I worked in is very near the bottom of the school system (schools are ranked) and so the worst teachers are sent there to be reformed. This means that you get some real stinkers, but that the principal and vice principal are usually quite good because they have to deal with these horrible teachers. Next step in your career past that school if you are on the way down is to get fired (and that's incredibly hard to do in the school system).

So like I said, I worked with some people who I have to say rank as some of the worst examples of humanity that I have ever met in my life. They were petty, vindictive, mean... Let me just give you an example. One person I worked with hated one of the students. I don't know why. He was a nice guy, but she just hated him for some reason. She tried to get him kicked off of the baseball team. For no reason. Just because she hated him. He complained to the principal and the principal asked everybody in the department (including me) what the deal was. We all said that she's just crazy and so the guy was allowed to stay on the baseball team (and the teacher was lectured -- you have no idea how long... maybe 8-10 hours!) So this poor guy was having a hard time at home and one day his mother threw him off the second floor balcony of their apartment. Luckily he didn't die, but he broke his arm. The school intervened and offered to set up a foster home for him, or if he wanted they would find an apartment for him and set him up with a job with a local company (quitting school). He chose the latter since school wasn't going well for him either. That teacher started crowing the next day how she was right about him and what scum he was since he gave up on school. Complete nutcase.

Anyway long story short... in 5 years of working even with people like that, I was never involved in any discrimination at work. On he contrary, people often complimented me on picking up "the Japanese way" and doing things appropriately. Which is not to say that I've never experienced discrimination in Japan -- I have, but never at work (YMMV, of course). The worst discrimination I've received in Japan were from expats who complained that I enjoyed Japan too much, spoke too much Japanese and hung out with too many Japanese people. "They'll never accept you, you know. You should just be yourself." On the contrary, those people never accepted me and I was being myself. My Japanese friends were perfectly happy for me to be whoever I wanted to be. I had one incident where the husband of a friend of mine refused to speak to me ever. I could never figure out why until my friend said, "I'm sorry. He doesn't like Europeans". Which floored me, but... I know lots of people in Canada and the UK who don't like "brown people", so it was an interesting experience to be on the other side.

Is this a place where I would be happy to be for the rest of my life, to start a family and retire: Yes. Absolutely no question. This is my home. I'm a bit old to be having kids (I'm 50), but I got married here. My wife is Japanese and we met while I was teaching here. My wife's family is amazing and I've had absolutely no problems at all. My mother in law refers to me as her son and often introduces me that way. Sometimes people do a double take, but nobody has ever said anything (they are Japanese after all!).

When I go travelling with my wife, foreigners are supposed to give their passport or foreigner registration card to the hotel so that they can make a photocopy of it. But given that my wife and I speak Japanese together and I'm perfectly at home here, I think most people assume I'm a naturalised citizen. I have an accent when I speak (which people kindly say is not that bad), so it's obvious I'm not from here originally.

Somewhat strangely, I'm not even a permanent resident yet. After I got married, my wife wanted to see what it's like to live in a foreign country, so we went off to the UK for 2 years. That reset my counter. I'm not actually sure when I can apply, but I think I can probably do it soon. Due to British ancestry I can work in the UK, but if I get Japanese citizenship, I'll have to give that up. My wife's mother is getting older (in her 80's) and while it's hard to think about, after she passes away we might go back to the UK for a while. However, when we are done travelling, I will definitely apply for citizenship. In fact, I'm always worried that something will happen, or the rules will change or something like that and it's very tempting to do it now. But yes, this is home for me and hopefully this is where I'll retire.

Hope that rambling account was interesting for you. I've lived in 4 countries in my life: Canada, the US, the UK and Japan. All have advantages and disadvantages. All have challenges. I fit in here better than I fit in anywhere else. Not everybody is like that. Some people (many, many people to be perfectly frank) do not like living here at all. You have to become Japanese if you want to be treated as a Japanese person. If you are not willing to do that, then it can be very difficult to live here long term. However, if you only want to live here for a year or two, then it's no problem at all (and in fact, can be considerably easier).

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#40
post #13

If you're ethnically Asian but don't speak Japanese, Japan will not be welcoming at all. If you don't look ethnically Asian, Japanese people will give you allowances and defer to you. However, if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed[0]. They speak fluent Japanese and their families have lived 3 generations in Japan. [0] https://en.wikipedia…

To name Koreans as an example is disingenuous. If you read the Wikipedia article you will also see that the problems come from both sides. The Koreans the Wikipedia article talks about do not want to fully integrate - they insist on their Korean nationality and demand rights of both Korean and Japanese nationals. At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppresse…

It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts.

There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their descendants or all Koreans), Ainu peoples, Ryukyuan peoples and Burakumin. Sometimes they result in criminal or problematic acts; for example, Korean immigrants are a major force behind the notorious pachinko industry. Still such phenomena do not mask the underlying problem.

> At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know.

They have managed to obtain a special status because they have been oppressed! You are swapping the cause and the effect. Also you can't use irritation among Japanese as a rationale or whatever because they are naturally biased---it's just that, they feel so and there might or might not be a good reason.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan

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