Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#31

Post by leereeves » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:52 PM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #18

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

The downside is that they have no bargaining power because their continued stay in the US is at the whim of their employer.

That good for the employer, not good for workers.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#32

Post by sidlls » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:53 PM UTC

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

Not that I agree with our immigration laws, but have you considered that it's not so much "willing" as it is a choice between poor options ("take this position at less than market rate" or "stay in this country and have little or nothing")? In other words, you are presenting the case as if it's a simple free market at work when in fact there are many other factors making that not the case.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#33

Post by hart_russell » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:53 PM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #18

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

Yes, but you're not addressing the point that immigrant workers can be paid less for the same work.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#34

Post by fjsolwmv » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:53 PM UTC

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

It's not about citizens vs immigrants, it's permanent residents and citizens vs "temporary" workers

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#35

Post by fjsolwmv » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:54 PM UTC

akarma wrote: post #26

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?", to which there's many answers. One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation. It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of your nei…

The main problem with globalism is that capital conspires against labor but labor doesn't respond with a unified front.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#36

Post by hart_russell » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:54 PM UTC

gerdesj wrote: post #24

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

America first or people first?

If the company falls under US jurisdiction, it's incumbent upon policy makers to put Americans first

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#37

Post by dangero » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:56 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #20

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. No H1? No problem, move the function offshore.

That's not absolutist true, but this is the type of study I would like the government to invest in with my tax dollars. We should know how often this is the outcome.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#38

Post by nothrabannosir » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:56 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #31

fjsolwmv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

The downside is that they have no bargaining power because their continued stay in the US is at the whim of their employer. That good for the employer, not good for workers.

That’s a consequence of the US’s particular implementation of talent visas (H1B being tied to employer), not an argument against attracting high skilled workers.

(I think most people on this forum would agree H1B needs reform ?)

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#39

Post by abtinf » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:56 PM UTC

Here is a good talk on how to think about three deeply connected topics that are under attack today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU

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Free Trade, Immigration and Robots, Oh My!

One of the biggest threats America faces—we are told—is the assault on our workforce: the loss of American jobs to immigrants, to foreign competition fueled by free trade, and even to technology that will make all kinds of jobs obsolete. In this talk the Ayn Rand Institute's executive chairman, Yaron Brook, argues that this fear is entirely misplaced—that a proper grasp of the virtue of productiveness shows that far from fearing and opposing free trade, immigration and robots, we should be eagerly embracing all three.

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Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#40

Post by sidlls » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:57 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #3

Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?

It's both.

As for pay: an anecdote. I manage a team that includes some H1-B visa holders. The visa holders are paid quite well relative to most workers in America, like most tech workers are, but they are definitely paid less than their peers on my team (a situation I work hard to remedy at raise and bonus time), but not so much less as to necessarily draw focus from regulators. It's more like the pay discrepancy between men and women (except not quite to that degree).

As for mobility: ask any H1-B holder who has worked at a company with massive layoffs whether they felt more or less anxiety than people with less restrictive visas, greencards, or citizenship.