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America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#31

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Density wrote: post #14
nl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

>They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans.

I don't blame them. Nobody who grew up in CO before it was California Lite will tell you that immigration from CA made the place better.

Large amounts of inter-state immigration has in my estimation hurt culture in the destination communities far more than immigrants from a different country, or at least that's the track record so far.

Lewiston Maine vs Portland Maine would be a good example. Lewiston had a bunch of Africans move in and the place has been perfectly fine. Portland had a bunch of MA transplants and it's changed for the worse. It may as well be MA now.

I mean sure, Portland has more money but would you rather have money or your culture?

edit: and I'm wrong because why?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#32

Post by akhilcacharya »

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

I also remember a time when human decency wasn't shrouded in the pejorative "political correctness".

Both myself and the leadership of The Atlantic listened to what Kevin Williamson said. I think it speaks for itself.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#33

Post by dragonwriter »

Density wrote: post #14
nl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

> Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture.

I do understand them, and they largely are racist, and the culture to which you refer is itself steeped in racism. So, yes, they also hate anyone that refuses to share there racist culture, but that doesn't negate their actual racism.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#34

Post by SlapHappy »

ashleyn wrote: post #13
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

> For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism

Doesn't this fly in the face of the contemporary liberal/progressive critiques of society? It seems to me that race has had a central role in both the founding (genocide of native americans), expansion (slavery), and liberalization (civil rights era) of the United States.

>This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind...A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

I hope to God that you are right, I really, really do - but when I look at history in terms civilizations, eras, etc., not in years or a couple of decades, I have little hope that ideas about "freedom" or "responsibility" are capable of sustaining a nation. It seems to me that religion can, or something transcendental, and I say this as an ardent atheist.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#35

Post by WhompingWindows »

Of course this is true. If anyone is naive enough to believe America is a hellish wasteland of terrible politics, and that that transfers to overall Quality of Life metrics for society as a whole, they might be surprised by this. Any honest look at data on employment, QoL, services available for free or very cheaply in the lives of the average citizen, there are many reasons for optimism.

Personally, I try to cut from my media diet any purely speculative or fear-driven content. Instead of telling us what might happen in the future if this policy comes down the pipe, maybe tell us about what's already happened recently, what the data shows us about the most important issues. To me, these are issues like the opioid epidemic, not what a politician wrote on Twitter recently. Another example would be focusing extensively on negative coverage, like opioids, and ignoring positive trends made in science, technology, and culture - who wants to read about the daily incremental improvements in life?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#36

Post by justinlink »

Clubber wrote: post #30
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just this last weekend, we were going through northern Ohio. We stopped at a restaurant. Greasy spoon, one of. Smelled good outside, and lots of cars. We ate. Good food, reasonable price. Near the end, the waitress asked if we'd NOT pay in credit card, so she wouldn't have to report the tips. I'm not terribly concerned about being a conspirator to tax fraud with someone making $2.35/hr Then she goes into talking abou…

I believe you are confusing racism with bigotry. Here is the dictionary definition of racism: >prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Of course superior is an objective word, but I don't see any evidence in that quoted statement where she felt superior. Honestly sounded more like self pity, jealousy and stereotyping. "…

You are correct. If you switch up the statement:

Then she goes into talking about her daughter who moved back in. Disabled. And when they went to the Social Security office and Welfare office, "those white people always seem to get it". She went off on a soliloquy about 'us poor black and brown people'.

Nobody would consider that statement racist.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#37

Post by thinkingemote »

Clubber wrote: post #30
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just this last weekend, we were going through northern Ohio. We stopped at a restaurant. Greasy spoon, one of. Smelled good outside, and lots of cars. We ate. Good food, reasonable price. Near the end, the waitress asked if we'd NOT pay in credit card, so she wouldn't have to report the tips. I'm not terribly concerned about being a conspirator to tax fraud with someone making $2.35/hr Then she goes into talking abou…

I believe you are confusing racism with bigotry. Here is the dictionary definition of racism: >prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Of course superior is an objective word, but I don't see any evidence in that quoted statement where she felt superior. Honestly sounded more like self pity, jealousy and stereotyping. "…

Based on a definition of bigotry made in these comments: "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own"

I don't think they are confusing racism with bigotry. Maybe (unhelpful) stereotypes based on race, or a racialised view of society.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#38

Post by exelius »

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats.

I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) along be lines of “don’t provoke me for my religious beliefs and I won’t provoke you for your homosexuality”.

I do still think we have a long way towards navigating those differences as they play out on an interpersonal level. A classic example is sexual harassment in the workplace: women are justifiably upset by it, but men are also upset at the blowback. Fact is, it’s pretty easy for a man to be threatening to a woman without realizing he is — most men don’t understand how much the sheer size/strength difference intimidates most women when emotions get heated. Navigating this environment takes empathy from both sides and is something that has to be established on a person-to-person basis.

IMO this is just the new normal. There was a time when people could hide their differences, but with social media and such I’m not sure that’s reasonable. So we actually have to learn to navigate the differences rather than pretending they don’t exist.

That, in my mind, is progress.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#39

Post by maxerickson »

brandonmenc wrote: post #10
humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

Thank you for using the correct definition of "bigotry." The general population seems to confuse "bigot" only with "racist" or "sexist," for some reason.

They didn't though. Williamson wasn't fired because the Atlantic readers hate white conservative opinion writers, he was fired because Atlantic readers aren't very interested in his particular views.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#40

Post by Density »

watwut wrote: post #22
Density wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

When was the exact year when "actual racism" disappeared?

Never and this is an opinion, but I feel racism is getting stronger under Trump.
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