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The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

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Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#31

Post by JumpCrisscross »

etiam wrote: post #30
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I went to an ayurvedic doctor “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda third paragraph

> “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. I'm sure it is. By whom and why? And more to the point, is it right in this case, regardless of its scientific status.

“Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific.[12] Other researchers consider it a protoscience, or trans-science system instead.[13][14] In a 2008 study, close to 21% of Ayurveda U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through the Internet were found to contain toxic levels of heavy metals, specifically lead, mercury, and arsenic.[15] The public health implications of such metallic contaminants in India are unknown.[15]” [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#32

Post by etiam »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29
smallnamespace wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine. Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit.

> we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine Science is the best mechanism we’ve found for developing towards truth. > Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit Red herring. I’m not saying it should be dismissed for research purposes. It is a pseudoscience because its practitioners make unfounde…

> Science is the best mechanism we’ve found for developing towards truth.

Mostly by destroying theories that don't hold up to scrutiny. Possibilities still need to come from somewhere.

> I’m not saying it should be dismissed for research purposes. It is a pseudoscience because its practitioners make unfounded, and in certain cases false, claims.

Good. We're mostly in agreement then. The nuances of that position were hardly clear from your original short post though, so I sympathize with smallnamespace's remark.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#33

Post by amelius »

cyrusshepard wrote: post #25
amelius wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds interesting, but how would you know which species to attack?

Most commercial phages in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world) are comprised of these 4: LH01 – Myoviridae LL5 – Siphoviridae T4D Myoviridae LL12 – Myoviridae You can research all of these, but these 4 specifically target a specific but broad range of potentially pathogenic bacteria, including E. Coli (though not all E. Coli is bad) and other species. Generally if you take them together they provide effecti…

Would these bacteria show up in a stool test? It would have my preference to first test myself, with the benefits of not taking any therapies I don't need, AND also for getting an objective measure of the effectiveness of the therapy.

By the way, I've read that phage therapy is big in Georgia: https://www.nature.com/news/phage-therapy-gets-revitalized-1...

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#34

Post by cyrusshepard »

amelius wrote: post #33
cyrusshepard wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most commercial phages in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world) are comprised of these 4: LH01 – Myoviridae LL5 – Siphoviridae T4D Myoviridae LL12 – Myoviridae You can research all of these, but these 4 specifically target a specific but broad range of potentially pathogenic bacteria, including E. Coli (though not all E. Coli is bad) and other species. Generally if you take them together they provide effecti…

Would these bacteria show up in a stool test? It would have my preference to first test myself, with the benefits of not taking any therapies I don't need, AND also for getting an objective measure of the effectiveness of the therapy. By the way, I've read that phage therapy is big in Georgia: https://www.nature.com/news/phage-therapy-gets-revitalized-1...

To a degree. Also, depends on the service you use for testing. For example, Ubiome will show your bacteria down the genus level (e.g. Enterococcus) but not the species level (e.g. Enterococcus gallinarum)

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#35

Post by cyrusshepard »

JoshMnem wrote: post #22
cyrusshepard wrote: post #18

If anyone is interested in a way to treat E. gallinarum—and other potentially pathogens—without antibiotics, you should look into phage therapy. Phages are viruses that attack specific bacteria, have been used for decades, are commercially available (even on Amazon) and are generally considered safe for human consumption. Granted, phage therapy typically targets gut pathogens, and in this study the E. gallinarum had…

Do you know where to find more information on that? (If you would be willing to answer a few questions about it, my email address is on my profile.)

FWIW, I started learning about phage therapy from John Herron, who runs the Gut Health Protocol. He sells a phage product so keep that in mind, but he's gathered a lot of research here: https://www.theguthealthprotocol.com/wp/phage-therapy/

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#36

Post by JoshMnem »

JoshMnem wrote: post #17
chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

The gut is the new "great unknown." Understanding it takes a more holistic approach. Western medicine / science is typically not very holistic-centric. It's not going to surprise me if many of the cures / remedies offered by "non traditional medicine" (read: lessons from human history) little by litte get more credit for their worthiness.

I don't know why people are downvoting you. Things like microbiome, calorie restriction, diet, and water fasting are very promising "non-traditional" areas for dealing with systemic inflammation, and they definitely can work. Researchers should be paying more attention to those areas. Doctors often have no good answers for those diseases -- they often don't even diagnose them promptly and correctly. There is some res…

I'm a skeptic, but knee-jerk skepticism is sometimes as bad as woo. I'm guessing that the downvoters have no experience with these kinds of conditions or what it's like to deal with the medical system around autoimmune conditions.

I could tell you many stories about it. I know one person who didn't get his autoimmune disease correctly diagnosed for 20 years. He now has serious problems due to lack of treatment for all that time. Even today, many doctors do not know basic information about those conditions (or sometimes even basic anatomy). The current state of autoimmune diagnosis is still absolutely terrible.

Woo is dangerous, but so is knee-jerk skepticism. I'm not complaining about modern medicine -- just that you shouldn't necessarily be so quick to downvote something if a medical doctor hasn't given their stamp of approval. Science does not have enough information yet to confidently and safely treat these problems, and it has provided many clues about the microbiome, intestinal permeability, and water fasting on the immune system. If you haven't heard of those things, I suggest reading some studies before downvoting.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#37

Post by tyingq »

eloff wrote: post #6

My mom has Hashimoto’s which she's managed successfully for years using a low daily dosage of doxycycline. This suggests a mechanism for why that seems to work for her.

Interesting. Also have Hashimoto's. But the only thing they give me is Levothyroxine.

Though, I suppose it's in the mild category. I mostly only experience lethargy, swelling in my neck, and itchy calves.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#38

Post by losteric »

smallnamespace wrote: post #26
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I went to an ayurvedic doctor “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda third paragraph

Unfortunately, we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine. Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit.

However, science does have a monopoly on proven medicine. The scientific method is literally how we understand what and why things work.

Traditional medicine is just cultural memory from millennia of blind trial and error... medicinal dogma. Some of it works, but research and clinical trials have repeatedly shown most traditional treatments are placebo at best.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#39

Post by asdf1234tx »

I'm no expert, but here's the sequence (in reverse order) as I see it (for now): bad-things-happening Anything that treats "bad things happening", or "crazed immune system", or "crazed gut bacteria", will be a bandaid.

I think our first world lifestyles create a perfect storm of bad living that undermines the foundations of a healthy human being from a multitude of vectors. Not enough sunlight, not enough unprocessed fresh foods, not enough exercise, not enough fresh air, long term consumption and exposure to compounds and chemicals that work against your bodies natural processes.

A friend of mine had to go every other month to sit in a chair for 4 hours at a clinic to receive an IV drip that included medication to squash his immune system. Why? Because his immune system was attacking every joint in his body. He could not move without extreme pain without the treatment. Eventually he stopped eating the cheapest and most processed of garbage food, started exercising every day, gave up alcohol and diet sodas, and lost 75lbs. He found that he no longer needed the medication after about a year of turning his life around...

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#40

Post by asdf1234tx »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #15
aviv wrote: post #12

Another reason why water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases.

> water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases Has this been demonstrated?

"...it can be argued that caloric restriction ... has the potential to accelerate the healing process..."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25881054

"...fasting ... has the potential to differentially protect normal and cancer cells against chemotherapy..."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/

"...Autophagy is sometimes referred to as cellular “cleansing”, and our observations provide an attractive neuronal parallel to the organismal benefits that, historically, are perceived to derive from fasting."

"...short-term food restriction induces a dramatic upregulation of autophagy in cortical and Purkinje neurons. To our knowledge, this is the first demonstration that food restriction leads to in vivo neuronal autophagy."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/

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