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The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

nytimes.com

31–40 of 79 posts

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#31

Here in the South, there is this air of hospitality. But there is an irony because everyone always rejects each others volunteer assistance out of pride for their ability to take care of themselves. I see charity directed towards me almost as an insult, or subtle attempted ownership, and there is this competitive air about needing less than others. But I suppose in more densely populated areas, there is more victimho…

> This "something" usually comes in the form of tax handouts, and when it is distributed, I'm certain it is quite mismanaged.

Oh yes, corporations typically just hang onto it and use it to enrich executives, or they funnel it out of the country. But it should be well-known by this point that corporations get way too many tax breaks.

> It seems like these types of problems can only exist when there are too many people living in close-proximity.

Let me guess: you avoid cities because the black people scare you?

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this can be called the most neutral explanation when it mentions nothing about how the UN considers Israel's occupation illegal or mentions anything about illegal settlements. This is also not even the highest ranked answer from the question you linked from Quora.

Welcome to HN. I love seeing new members expressing passionate views. Couple of quick questions: Do you always agree with every dictate of the UN? Does objectivity always garner the most votes?

You don't gain any ground by pointing out how long or how short the other user's account has been around.

> Do you always agree with every dictate of the UN?

This is irrelevant, unless you are trying to say that one either agrees with everything the UN says, or nothing. Clearly that is not the case; plenty of UN member nations consent on some issues, and dissent from others. The same can thus obviously be said of individual people. They don't have to agree with every dictate to agree with some of the conclusions of the body.

Like it or not, the UN reflects opinions from a substantial number of member nations, and it's hard to applaud any explanation that ignores the UN on an issue where they are, and have been, a centrally relevant party.

> Does objectivity always garner the most votes?

No, but you probably have to say more to justify a lower-approval response as the right answer to a question specifically seeking the most neutral explanation, than to simply say "this is the most objective one".

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#33

I love how he thinks that Israel bulldozing Palestinian neighborhoods and killing civilians doesn't count as oppression because there's more Arabs than Israelis in the general area.

"Arabs like to say that there are two conflicting narratives of the conflict. The facts are far simpler. It starts in the end of the 19th century. At the time millions of Jews were fleeing Russia and flooding Europe with refugees because of Czar Alexander III "Russia for Russians" program which sanctioned pogroms in order to evict the Jews from the country. This was only the latest in a long history of expulsions of…

> [being given as a gift half of the country they had immigrated to] ... was a compromise that the Jews were willing to accept.

What's the "compromise" for the Jews exactly here? They had nothing, they got half of the country.

> This is the whole story in a nutshell.

Really, no. It forgets the illegal occupation of the West Bank, the ever expanding settlements, the unilateral and unrecognized annexation of Jerusalem, the de facto apartheid system in the Occupied Territories, the daily violence against Palestinians.

It does mention Israeli disengagement from Gaza though. Maybe other readers would be interested in knowing how many settlers were actually affected by the famous disengagement from Gaza: eight thousand. Increase in the settlers population in the West Bank since then: more than 150 thousand. Nice trick, huh?

Btw, for some reason on Quora I've found the most blatant and shameless pro-Israel propaganda, often presented with long historical perspectives that are strangely blind on some crucial details, like the one you pasted here. I wouldn't take my information from there on this subject (or actually, most subjects) to be fair.

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#34
When I hear someone (having, by their own description, a front-row seat for these events) reduce the civil-rights movement to this:

“What I saw was a number of bad laws called into question and ultimately removed by acts of courage and wise restraint on the part of the victims of those laws.”

…as though the white-supremacist, apartheid state that existed in the south at the time was nothing more than a few pesky laws that had all gotten cleared up by 1968, I have to seriously question that person’s powers of observation. It’s such an almost perverse misunderstanding of history that it has be deliberate, right? Any time someone starts out with a premise like, “the civil rights movement, like a spiritual oil spill, left a vast residue of guilt in its wake,” and then proceeds from there, you know it’s going to be a long read.

Sure, there’s an attempt to graft some sort of philosophical backbone to the piece through this (nonsensical) distinction he makes between “appeal[s] to conscience” and ”appeal[s] to guilt,” but it’s confusingly handled and doesn’t go anywhere. Mainly what stands out for me is the relentless lack of empathy that runs throughout this article, which is really more in the way of a rant the a serious argument, anyway.

I think there’s a philosophical and moral argument to be had about victimhood, and the problematic nature of it, but you need to argue honestly. One sentence after he glibly absolves the government of responsibility for the AIDS crisis, he says, “whereas once the idea was to shake off victimhood through courage and organization, nowadays the idea seems to be to enjoy it for its emotional effects,” as though ACT UP never existed. In other words, you can make an argument, but you don’t get to rewrite or erase history that’s inconvenient to your thesis, which he does consistently. It’s disappointing this made it to the front page of HN, it’s a pretty unpleasant, dishonest piece of writing.

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#35
post #10

Epstein's powerful prose captures well the New York intellectual views of a certain culture and a certain generation. It's a fascinating perspective on what people were thinking then. I was equally fascinated by the deep view of the popular psyche shown in his September 1970 essay for Harper's Magazine, featured on its cover ( https://harpers.org/archive/1970/09/homohetero/ ): > Yet if heterosexual life has come to s…

It is normal to want grandchildren, and therefore it also normal to be distressed if your children are homosexual.

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#37

I love how he thinks that Israel bulldozing Palestinian neighborhoods and killing civilians doesn't count as oppression because there's more Arabs than Israelis in the general area.

"Arabs like to say that there are two conflicting narratives of the conflict. The facts are far simpler. It starts in the end of the 19th century. At the time millions of Jews were fleeing Russia and flooding Europe with refugees because of Czar Alexander III "Russia for Russians" program which sanctioned pogroms in order to evict the Jews from the country. This was only the latest in a long history of expulsions of…

> Arabs like to say that there are two conflicting narratives of the conflict. The facts are far simpler.

I'm aware that the conflict is old and complicated and there are good and bad people on both sides, but by your own account, the basis of it is that Brits decided that a group of people scattered across the world all had a natural right to live in roughly the same place their ancestors came from 2000 years previous, regardless of the feelings of the people who were already living there.

And, granted, their neighbors could have reacted less violently. But it still doesn't make much sense to begin with. I can trace my ancestry to medieval Britain, and I might be able to figure out exactly where some of my ancestors lived, but that doesn't give me or anyone the right to evict the people living there now.

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#38
post #10

Epstein's powerful prose captures well the New York intellectual views of a certain culture and a certain generation. It's a fascinating perspective on what people were thinking then. I was equally fascinated by the deep view of the popular psyche shown in his September 1970 essay for Harper's Magazine, featured on its cover ( https://harpers.org/archive/1970/09/homohetero/ ): > Yet if heterosexual life has come to s…

It is normal to want grandchildren, and therefore it also normal to be distressed if your children are homosexual.

Sure, but replace each instance of "homosexual" in the above with "person who does not want children" or "barren person" and see if you think that's why the author is distressed.

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#39

Look, I see that it's a relevant article today. But I don't think it's saying much, and it has a weird homophobic/racist current running through it. For example, Epstein mocks the idea that the US government exacerbated the AIDS crisis (which it clearly did.) He says slavery ended "more than a century" ago - slavery effectively continued several decades after the Thirteenth Amendment was passed. Now, I don't like the…

Forget all of that even, there's plenty of places where the opinion piece collapses under simple faulty logic. Here's one example:

> Such a situation could never have come about without certain fundamental confusions having been firmly established, and these begin with language itself. Victims have traditionally been minority groups, but in fact women, who in the United States are a slight majority, have been deemed victims, whereas the Jews and the Chinese in America, though clearly minorities (and vastly less numerous than blacks or Hispanic people), are not usually counted as victims and thus rarely get included in affirmative action or other quota favoritism programs. A victim, then, is someone who insistently declares himself a victim.

There have been times and places in the history of the world where the majority of the people in certain places were outright slaves, including in the United States and especially in the Caribbean. And yet are we to believe that these powerless, enslaved people weren't victims simply because slavery was such a vast institution that there were more people suffering under if than committing it?

Re: The Joys of Victimhood (1989)

#40

Look, I see that it's a relevant article today. But I don't think it's saying much, and it has a weird homophobic/racist current running through it. For example, Epstein mocks the idea that the US government exacerbated the AIDS crisis (which it clearly did.) He says slavery ended "more than a century" ago - slavery effectively continued several decades after the Thirteenth Amendment was passed. Now, I don't like the…

Forget all of that even, there's plenty of places where the opinion piece collapses under simple faulty logic. Here's one example: > Such a situation could never have come about without certain fundamental confusions having been firmly established, and these begin with language itself. Victims have traditionally been minority groups, but in fact women, who in the United States are a slight majority, have been deemed…

> including in the United States

"In the Confederacy, the population was listed as 5.5 million free and 3.5 million enslaved."

https://www.nps.gov/civilwar/facts.htm

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