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In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

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Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#31
For those of you who read German the following article sheds a revealing perspective on the effects of these new laws:

https://motherboard.vice.com/de/article/kznxz3/vom-netzdg-zu...

The leading paragraph claims that "Trolls and right-wing activists conspire through pr0gramm, Discord and Twitter to 'turn the law against hate speech' into its opposite: a tool to denounce left-wingers, women and migrants."

In other words, the opposite of "hate speech" is "left-wingers, women and migrants" according to the writer of this article. This shows the incredible myopia of these activists who have been warned time and again that those same censorship laws they were pressing for and sponsoring could and would be turned around to target their own political platforms. Unfortunately they did not listen, often because they blocked or banned those who spoke out against censorship as racists, xenophobes and more.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#32
post #18

> New research suggests that this digital hatred is now spilling over into the real world. I don't agree there is a distinction to be made here. The real world subsumes social media. Certainly violent crimes such as arson and assault are different, and more severe, than hateful or abusive posts or direct messages. Neither category is less real .

> Neither category is less real. I think the context is that "real world" is supposed to mean it has a physical effect. The implication is that physical crimes are legitimately categorized crimes and speech crimes are not exactly legitimate (according to where you say words, they might be criminal). I believe that some words that make someone/some group possibly feel bad (intrinsically, not just to libel), are not a…

That's the massive understanding I see when people who don't live in Germany complain about German censorship of speech:

It's not about feelings.

It's about shaping other people's opinions.

If someone says "jack9 is a kiddy fiddler" the damage is not that it might make jack9 upset, the damage is that others might think it's true and take actions that harm him.

If someone says "kill the kikes" the damage is not that Jewish people might be upset, the damage is that others might agree and commit violence against Jewish people.

It doesn't even have to be a convincing argument, it just has to give other people the impression their hatred is socially acceptable and their violence has public support.

Hate speech is like broken windows: the more a certain hateful sentiment is tolerated in society, the more socially acceptable that sentiment becomes, the more likely it becomes someone will act on it and that society will tolerate those actions too.

Hitler's rise to power was not a coup d'etat. Hitler didn't overthrow the government by killing generals and politicians and installing himself as leader. Hitler rose to power by manipulating people's sentiments with language. He created scapegoats and convinced people it's okay to channel their hate and frustration towards those scapegoats. When the Nazis first called for people to be killed or that their neighbors were inferior, few thought they meant it, but saying it over and over normalised the idea. They dehumanised their victims and their future enemies.

A lot of that rhetoric is normal in many places today and Trump's campaign wasn't even a special example. The rhetoric after 9/11 made Germans feel icky because it was so familiar but even then it wasn't new. Americans worry about racism and sexism, Germans worry about xenophobia -- hatred of the foreign, the different, the "other".

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#33
Completely backward. Real world events have consequences on how people talk in general and this spills over into the online world.

The new years event was a real event carried out by real people. It was the first mass rape event in the entire history of Germany. Something like this has never been seen before.

Now the last, most well meaning person has noticed that those so called "refugees" are either from countries where there is no war like north Africa or they are jihadists "fleeing" from Assad whose crime is that he wants to much secularism for their taste.

Attacks on refugees are nothing but an appropiate counter reaction to a crime and rape epidemic caused by people that see the initial kindness of German people as a weakness. They see themselves literally as invaders on behalf of prophet Muhammad.

The new planned coalition wants to import even another million over the next four years. If German men have just a little amount of spine and dignity left there will be a civil war.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#34

This comment vastly understates the effects of this law. Social Media companies are scared af to be fined by the German government, so the filters are so strong, that it targets the wrong people. A couple of comedians and satire magazines have been hit, left leaning people as well as right leaning people alike. In general, I don't think it's a good idea for the government to decide what I can post on social media or…

It's my understanding that you can thank Facebook for that law. Unless it hits their bottom line (or shows naked female breasts) it was nearly impossible to get a post deleted, even if it was clearly illegal. While it's unfortunate that such a relatively crude law was implemented it's at the end a reaction to the general, ultralibertarian "we don't give a fuck, unless it really hurts" attitude coming out of Silicon V…

How about regulators in your country gets regional delete link for every public content ? Does that soothe govts concern ?

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my understanding that you can thank Facebook for that law. Unless it hits their bottom line (or shows naked female breasts) it was nearly impossible to get a post deleted, even if it was clearly illegal. While it's unfortunate that such a relatively crude law was implemented it's at the end a reaction to the general, ultralibertarian "we don't give a fuck, unless it really hurts" attitude coming out of Silicon V…

None of that is a reason to make a law that has a private company decide what are in effect criminal cases against citizens. The minister responsible at some point made the completely idiotic remark that that is the right way to go because Facebook and the like are making a lot of money, so they also should be responsible for these costs. It seems like you can be a minister in Germany and never have heard of this con…

By any normal definition these aren't criminal cases. People don't end up losing jobs, going behind bars, gaining criminal records. They usually won't even lose their accounts; certainly the law doesn't suggest that. They simply cannot spread hate-speech.

The actual effects of this law in terms of possibly useful message lost are minuscule compared to the real culprits of goverment-enforced speech restrictions: namely copyrights ( and extras like DMCA) & libel laws. Those actually matter.

This doesn't.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#36
post #32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither category is less real. I think the context is that "real world" is supposed to mean it has a physical effect. The implication is that physical crimes are legitimately categorized crimes and speech crimes are not exactly legitimate (according to where you say words, they might be criminal). I believe that some words that make someone/some group possibly feel bad (intrinsically, not just to libel), are not a…

That's the massive understanding I see when people who don't live in Germany complain about German censorship of speech: It's not about feelings. It's about shaping other people's opinions. If someone says "jack9 is a kiddy fiddler" the damage is not that it might make jack9 upset, the damage is that others might think it's true and take actions that harm him. If someone says "kill the kikes" the damage is not that J…

Oh, before anyone thinks this backs up radical "SJW" sentiments: there's plenty of hatred on that side of the arena as well. Intersectionality especially has a tendency to break down into othering. Victim narratives easily lend themselves to excusing violence against "abusers".

While we're going full Godwin: Nazi Germany started out as the victim of the victors of WW2 and socialist traitors. Germany's entry into WW2 literally was as the victim of Polish aggression. None of that is really true if you look at it objectively, of course, but that was the language used by nazis at the time.

If you the only thing making your behaviour morally righteous is your victimhood, maybe your behaviour isn't righteous at all.

I'm socialist-libertarian myself but that doesn't mean I tolerate the same damaging behaviour from "my" side.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my understanding that you can thank Facebook for that law. Unless it hits their bottom line (or shows naked female breasts) it was nearly impossible to get a post deleted, even if it was clearly illegal. While it's unfortunate that such a relatively crude law was implemented it's at the end a reaction to the general, ultralibertarian "we don't give a fuck, unless it really hurts" attitude coming out of Silicon V…

None of that is a reason to make a law that has a private company decide what are in effect criminal cases against citizens. The minister responsible at some point made the completely idiotic remark that that is the right way to go because Facebook and the like are making a lot of money, so they also should be responsible for these costs. It seems like you can be a minister in Germany and never have heard of this con…

Facebook makes money off that criminal activity via ads. It's not as clear cut as you make it.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there always was a very clear procedure for reporting illegal content: You visit your local police station and tell them.

And that never went anywhere, because Facebook disobeyed even court orders. They never replied to judges. They never took down posts a court had ordered them to. The NetzDG is bad law, and will probably be repealed before the Constitution Court rules it unconstitutional. But it was a reaction to social networks disobeying the law. An overreaction, yes, but a reaction. I wish it were more commonly known in libertarian…

Well, sure, but it didn't go nowhere because a clear procedure for reporting didn't exist, but because the law was not enforced and maybe because some pieces necessary for successful enforcement were missing (which the NetzDG adds, in addition to all the crap that privatizes the law enforcement).

Really, I don't see many people in "net freedom circles" who object to forcing Facebook to delete illegal posts. The objection is rather to (a) deleting stuff instead of prosecuting the perpetrators, (b) hiding (censoring) stuff that's still there, and (c) making parties other than the judicial system responsible for limiting speech.

But, yeah, sure, I don't care about Facebook or Twitter either.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#39

The paper can be downloaded from https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=8201061010270271... I have only skimmed through the paper, but I am a bit skeptical about their conclusions. The authors first showed that the attacks-on-refugees time series is strongly correlated to the anti-refugee-posts time series. This part is very basic and is OK. Then they tried to exhibit a causal relationship between the two series…

It'd be more comforting to see something done by a psychologist.

A correlation between physical violence and negative verbal sentiment doesn't seem that surprising. That talk on an online forum precedes violence is plausible.

Claiming talk online /causes/ violence is a little surprising and has dangerous political implications, ie, makes a case to target speech of AfD, which polled a respectable ~10% in the last German federal election.

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