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Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

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Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Sadly it seems in a sense RH is funding both sides at the same time, as many of their employees are the very source of the "exciting" developments happening in the Linux ecosystem these days. Thing is though that in a sense the Linux community has painted itself into a corner. Thanks to the likes of RHEL, Ubuntu LTS and Debian Stable, there is little reason for the upstream to be anything but "exciting".

Out of curiosity, what are the exciting developments happening in the Linux ecosystem these days?

Checkpoint-restore of processes (CRIU) is a fairly cool technology that is quite unique to Linux, and has gotten a lot of work in recent years. eBPF (both for seccomp and tracing) is also quite exciting in terms of its applications. User namespaces are also allowing for developments such as rootless containers. There's also some interesting stuff for trusted computing that are happening with IMA and TPM developments in general.

In user-space there's even more interesting developments, you just have to look a little closer. ;)

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#32
post #21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to have doubts about this line of reasoning. It just doesn't explain enough of the risky behavior I see. I'm starting to think it might be the same thing that gets young developers to put up with 10+ hour days. That feeling you get when you lose yourself in a problem for hours and hours. Being in a Flow state is seductive. Nobody gets that feeling when looking through the bug database or knowledge base,…

Programming is based on hero worship. Anyone who makes even half an effort to better themselves as a software developer will encounter famous names from the past - those that "made a difference" by creating languages, operating systems and algorithms. Keyword here is "create". This is not an industry that celebrates maintence programmers. There's no glory for the guy that spent 20 years keeping the system that your b…

There are some wannabe-heroes, but they aren't so widespread.

The vast majority is just being pragmatic. Trendy toys and 'designed and implemented new X' in resume looks so much better for career than 'maintained something old so customers were happy'. Of course, there are some technologies that helps to make pretty good money even being ancient, like COBOL, APL, AS/400 and IMS. But for how long? So it seems rational to move forward instead.

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#33
post #21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to have doubts about this line of reasoning. It just doesn't explain enough of the risky behavior I see. I'm starting to think it might be the same thing that gets young developers to put up with 10+ hour days. That feeling you get when you lose yourself in a problem for hours and hours. Being in a Flow state is seductive. Nobody gets that feeling when looking through the bug database or knowledge base,…

Programming is based on hero worship. Anyone who makes even half an effort to better themselves as a software developer will encounter famous names from the past - those that "made a difference" by creating languages, operating systems and algorithms. Keyword here is "create". This is not an industry that celebrates maintence programmers. There's no glory for the guy that spent 20 years keeping the system that your b…

As a fairly young programmer, I think it's not necessarily hero worship (though that does play a part). I think it's because a lot of young programmers define their identities in terms of what they do. This is especially prevalent in the free software community. If you're going to define yourself by what you work on, it doesn't seem very fulfilling to just keep an existing project running without having the freedom to make drastic changes that would improve the project.

It should noted though that the above points about Red Hat and "boring" (as much I hate calling people's work boring) don't sit right with me. I know quite a few people who work at Red Hat on very interesting technologies. At SUSE, I work on fairly interesting technologies as well. The key aspect that makes SUSE (or Red Hat) "boring" is that we have effectively solved the problem of release engineering and maintenance (though in recent years SUSE has been improving on it further through openSUSE Leap and the recent plans for SLE15). The funny thing is that if upstreams could do their own release engineering correctly, SUSE and Red Hat would have a weaker value proposition.

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#34
post #29

My company (20,000+ employees) just started an engagement with Red Hat this week. We went with them for exactly what the article describes: open source software, packaged in an enterprise (i.e. expensive) fashion to make it palatable. We could have implemented these tools ourselves, but the executives appreciate the support contract and training, and I'm already seeing how we can benefit from the consultants' knowled…

That's funny how things are done in big shops. It's pretty much okay to spend a good six digit sum for some tool done by 3rd party, but just impossible to pay 100x less to someone in-house who could add a couple of features into existing in-house software on a weekend.

Often times, if the work is critical enough, you could argue paying the 3rd party with a track record, insurance or a strict contract for delivery, support is the logical choice. Sure someone in-house could do it, but if they screw up or create something that bites you down the line, is it going to end up costing more.

The cynical way to interpret this behavior though is the old "No one got fired for buying IBM". Paying a big name outside company is the safe choice because you can always blame them, but if you decided to go with the in house guy, there's no one else to blame.

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#35

I've been hearing the "boring" comment a lot lately, and I totally agree. I don't want the exciting filesystem (btrfs which just took me for a ride), or the exciting programming language/library that will strand me in 6 months with multiple man-years of work. No, what I want is boring. That means everything works as I expect it too, and it doesn't create drama every few months when the cool kids decide that the old w…

The thing that makes distributions like Red Hat and SUSE "boring" is not that we only do maintenance work, it's that we've effectively solved the problem of maintenance and release engineering -- though of course there's still improvements to be made (and on the SUSE side, openSUSE Leap and the plans for SLE15 are quite interesting developments).

We do a lot of work on exciting and interesting projects, some of which crash and burn as well. But part of the benefit of working for an enterprise distribution is that generally if some project is not ready to ship yet, we don't ship it. Having an out-dated version of some package is fairly common, and as long as we can do the maintenance work on it, it doesn't really matter. So we have a lot of time to improve upstreams to be stable enough to ship.

[I work for SUSE.]

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#36
post #8
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that OpenShift is more of a superset of k8s vs. a fork. I don't think the situation is going to be as bad as you are implying.

A fork can imply many things, but all supersets are forks. I realize that RedHat doesn't like calling OpenShift a fork, but it fundamentally is. The only people that will maintain their additional functionality is RedHat themselves. If you manage to avoid all of their added functionality then you can avoid the vendor lock in. But you can't avoid the delays in getting upstream features/bug fixes. If Kubernetes was sup…

I don't understand why people are so fork-a-phobic, and anti-patching these days. Distributions (like Red Hat and SUSE, but also Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, etc) have been doing this for decades. Forking a project is something that is unique to the free software community, and we're doing ourselves a disservice by not taking advantage of this freedom. Forking a fast-paced project like k8s is fairly ambitious, as you've said, but that doesn't make it a bad idea from the outset.

> If RedHat doesn't have the clout to get their improvements in upstream, why should I presume they have the clout to avoid their additions won't be broken by other changes?

That's not how free software development or maintenance work. Believe it or not, the engineers at Red Hat (or SUSE, Canonical, etc) are actually pretty clever. An upstream not accepting a change can be for any number of reasons unrelated to the technical aspects of the patch itself. It could be a conflict with their roadmap or scope, it could break something else they're working on that is of higher priority, it could require more discussion on whether the use-cases can be solved by existing features, it could require further research into whether the proposed feature is the best way of solving the problem, etc. I've seen all of those reasons (and more) for some of my changes not being merged upstream (and I also maintain some upstream projects, so I've used those reasons before too). Not to mention that usually "no" in an upstream review means "not yet, I'm still thinking about it".

If an upstream rejects a patch, but a customer needs the patch in order for them to be able to effectively use the project, then Red Hat (or SUSE, Canonical, etc) are entirely within their rights to add that patch to the packages they ship. And that's the correct thing to do. Upstreams generally are not good at release engineering, so in order for hotfixes a distribution would have to patch the project anyway. What makes a feature patch any different? Not to mention that Red Hat (or SUSE, Canonical, etc) also provides documentation on how to migrate to the upstream feature (if the upstream feature ends up being different).

Kernel development has worked this way for more than 25 years, with distributions carrying patches that eventually get pushed upstream asynchronously (usually with some improvements through discussions that make them more generic for all kernel users). While stable kernels have made the massive patchsets much less of a burden to maintain, this model still is in practice today.

[I work for SUSE.]

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#37
post #30
post #5

OpenShift is a fork of Kubernetes. Case in point. OpenShift has functionality called a Route. That isn't in Kubernetes. Kubernetes of course went and added something similar called ingress. This means that anytime Kubernetes does a release that RedHat has to manage merging all those changes in with their local changes that aren't part of their project. This is exactly the same sort of thing that RedHat does with thei…

Kubernetes owes its success largely to Openshift and Redhat's efforts. Without Openshift, Kubernetes would just be an interesting POC. Google doesn't dog food Kubernetes. Openshift has since the beginning, and contributed significantly to K8s as a result of actual production usage. Just take a look at the top contributors and you can see the kind of contributions of the Redhat guys. While I sort of agree with you on…

> Kubernetes owes its success largely to Openshift and Redhat's efforts. Without Openshift, Kubernetes would just be an interesting POC.

How did you arrive at this conclusion. Curious to know more about redhats role in this.

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#38

Redhat might be doing well but many open source projects clearly aren't. There are routine SOS posted here about projects in dire straits. So how much of this revenue does downstream see? Something as critical as Gnupg was recently in trouble and got funding from Stripe and Facebook. Companies like Redhat acquire projects or hire project leads for influence but few really seem to 'support' open source. Docker is a VC…

Redhat supports the community by providing tons of maintainers/maintenance of projects. So, they may not support $PROJECT with dollars, but for a few thousand projects they base their business on, they provide hundreds of thousands of dollars in year in engineering time fixing bugs, or updating things which are bothering their customers. Particularly on all the unsexy portions of the OS that everyone else has moved o…

'Maintenance' sounds like a takeover without compensation. Surely with $3 billion in revenues Redhat should have a open source fund to sustain people whose code they use? Shouldn't some money find its way back to all the open source projects?

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#39
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what are the exciting developments happening in the Linux ecosystem these days?

Checkpoint-restore of processes (CRIU) is a fairly cool technology that is quite unique to Linux, and has gotten a lot of work in recent years. eBPF (both for seccomp and tracing) is also quite exciting in terms of its applications. User namespaces are also allowing for developments such as rootless containers. There's also some interesting stuff for trusted computing that are happening with IMA and TPM developments…

CRIU looks amazing, live-migration of LXC containers :)

Re: Red Hat is pretty good at being Red Hat

#40
post #32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is based on hero worship. Anyone who makes even half an effort to better themselves as a software developer will encounter famous names from the past - those that "made a difference" by creating languages, operating systems and algorithms. Keyword here is "create". This is not an industry that celebrates maintence programmers. There's no glory for the guy that spent 20 years keeping the system that your b…

There are some wannabe-heroes, but they aren't so widespread. The vast majority is just being pragmatic. Trendy toys and 'designed and implemented new X' in resume looks so much better for career than 'maintained something old so customers were happy'. Of course, there are some technologies that helps to make pretty good money even being ancient, like COBOL, APL, AS/400 and IMS. But for how long? So it seems rational…

That said, if you've got COBOL, Fortran, etc on your resume you're pretty much guaranteed to get asked about it in an interview.
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