RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss • Hacker News Board

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#31

Post by dieterrams » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 1:47 PM UTC

statictype wrote: post #24

bombs wrote: post #5

If the antenna is internal (and invisible) how many would even realise they were affecting it in any way? Apple drew a lot of attention to its antenna, both in terms of design and marketing, so how many people reported problems after deliberately trying to screw with it? I just made my iPhone 3GS, Blackberry 9700 and Nokia N97 all drop a couple of bars by covering their internal antennas with my palm. I expect this t…

I think you've missed the point. With the iPhone 4, it's possible to reproduce this issue by holding the phone in a very natural way. The fact that other phones also lose reception but only if you hold them in a special way clearly isn't a problem - if it were it would have created a big stink. And if you think people are deliberately making a big production out of this to screw with Apple, then why wasn't it done wi…

Ugh. We know it's easy to intentionally reproduce the problem. But the only data anyone has suggests that, in practice, it doesn't seem to be affecting people much, just like I'm sure deathgrips aren't affecting BB users much. Can we move on from Antennagate now? Maybe talk about Erlang instead?

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#32

Post by Geee » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 1:47 PM UTC

tjogin wrote: post #18

shin_lao wrote: post #16

So every telephone can get signal attenuation if you hold it in a certain fashion in certain reception conditions. That sounds plausible, although I never experienced the problem with my bb bold, I'm ready to accept this problem can be reproduced. That's not the issue at hand. The issue with the iPhone 4 is that it's very easy to drop calls and get signal attenuation. The reports are too numerous to be just a sporadi…

First. If the problem is as widespread as you think, how do you reconcile that with AT&T's dropped calls statistics that show that it drops less than 1% more calls than the iPhone 3GS? Second. How do you reconcile it with AnandTech's tests that show that the iPhone 4 is better at keeping calls even with a poor signal?

It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls.

I made some research on this and found http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022 which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%.

iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's clearly not enough when the phone seems to lose the signal altogether.

Edit: Jobs said clearly that the 4 drops ~1 calls more per 100 than the 3GS. 1 per 100 -> 2 per 100.

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#33

Post by Geee » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:15 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #27

kwyjibo wrote: post #17

They should sue Apple for false claims.

It isn't false. RIM didn't deny it loses bars when held a certain way. They were just pissed that that Apple showed it to be true. Apple did show it to be true so there is no false claim.

They are really comparing apples to oranges in the sense that they didn't talk about the iPhone's design flaw, just RF shadowing which is obvious.

There isn't any phone other than iPhone that loses the signal altogether by just touching one point on the phone.

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#34

Post by nkassis » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:26 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #32

tjogin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First. If the problem is as widespread as you think, how do you reconcile that with AT&T's dropped calls statistics that show that it drops less than 1% more calls than the iPhone 3GS? Second. How do you reconcile it with AnandTech's tests that show that the iPhone 4 is better at keeping calls even with a poor signal?

It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls. I made some research on this and found http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022 which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%. iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's clearl…

Yeah felt that apple was being a little sneaky with how they were putting out the data. Lets assume that 0.1 calls per hundreds was lost on the 3gs, then 1 more is a huge difference, if the 3gs dropped 3 calls than it's still huge but not as huge so without the 3gs drops per hundreds how do we know wtf 1 more means?

1 more is still a ton, an average user probably does more than 100 calls per month so... that's a drop call per month and for people in shitty area that could be multiple a week on the high end (some people never drop calls on the iPhone)

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#35

Post by carbocation » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:28 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #28

larsalan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and libel, there is clear intent to damage RIM's brand name and profitability. Steve is a dirty bird like that.

Huh? Were I to find out that Big Mac is people I would tell the press with the clear intent to damage McDonald’s brand name and profitability. Is that also libel? I would hope, anyway, that true claims are never libel.

In the US, truth is usually considered a defense against claims of libel. Not so elsewhere, such as the UK, if I recall correctly. (IANAL)

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#36

Post by fuzzybassoon » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:29 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #32

tjogin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First. If the problem is as widespread as you think, how do you reconcile that with AT&T's dropped calls statistics that show that it drops less than 1% more calls than the iPhone 3GS? Second. How do you reconcile it with AnandTech's tests that show that the iPhone 4 is better at keeping calls even with a poor signal?

It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls. I made some research on this and found http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022 which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%. iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's clearl…

Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding what Jobs said. They said it drops ~1 call per hundred than the 3GS, not 1 percentage point more. That's a huge difference. It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops 1.01% of calls.

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#37

Post by jsz0 » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:43 PM UTC

fuzzybassoon wrote: post #36

Geee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls. I made some research on this and found http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022 which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%. iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's clearl…

Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding what Jobs said. They said it drops ~1 call per hundred than the 3GS, not 1 percentage point more. That's a huge difference. It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops 1.01% of calls.

It looks like lots of people just read live blogs and second hand accounts. It's shocking to see how easily and quickly the facts get mutated these days.

Just to show I'm somewhat unbiased on the issue -- if we want to question Apple's data why did they show AT&T store returns and not Apple Store returns?

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#38

Post by tjogin » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:44 PM UTC

gokhan wrote: post #22

tjogin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That hasn't been easy to reproduce though. Some people, in some places, but not like the "death grip".

Looks easy to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgouzUMlQpY

That's one person in one place. It's not easy to reproduce for a lot of people.

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#39

Post by Terretta » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:44 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #15

jsz0 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They showed a video of the Bold 9700 having a death grip issue which probably also effects very few people in real world usage. (13% of 9700 owners based on this site's poll)

I have a Bold 9700 and have never had a problem of this kind.

I have an iPhone 4, live in terrible coverage, when this blew up took it out of the bumper for past two weeks, and can't drop a call even in places my 3GS and Blackberry Pearl couldn't make calls at all... And so?

Bandwagons roll on squeaky wheels.

Re: RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

#40

Post by zacharye » Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 2:51 PM UTC

fuzzybassoon wrote: post #36

Geee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls. I made some research on this and found http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022 which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%. iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's clearl…

Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding what Jobs said. They said it drops ~1 call per hundred than the 3GS, not 1 percentage point more. That's a huge difference. It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops 1.01% of calls.

You lost me. AT&T's data, according to Jobs, suggests the iPhone 4 drops one additional call per hundred when compared to the 3GS.

"It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops 1.01% of calls."

"If the 3GS drops 1% of calls", it drops one call per hundred.

That means the iPhone 4 drops two calls per hundred, or 2% of one hundred calls. Not 1.01%.