Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#31

Post by badminton1 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

milesrout wrote: post #16

badminton1 wrote: post #6

Many schools do not make proper use of computer labs. While you could teach practical skills such as - how to process images, audio, video - how to code - math beyond silly games featuring anthropomorphic neotenized animals - workshops for chess and go - use one of the awesome open source software for chemistry, geometry, astronomy, etc... Only use for computers is for people to write documents, search online, print…

>While you could teach practical skills such as Those aren't practical skills that need to be taught to secondary school students. They need to learn mathematics, writing, reading, literature, science, etc. They don't need to learn how to code, they don't need to learn how to make memes in Paint or youtube videos of themselves playing minecraft, nor how to play irrelevant (if fun) games like Chess. >Only use for comp…

Those skills that you called unpractical are actually valuable in today's service economy, and helped me put food on the table for years as well as pay for higher education.

Then no matter what activity you pick in life, being self-sufficient with regards to presenting and illustrating your ideas or doing some basic marketing is always valuable.

Same with code. Even if you do not plan to be a programmer, having a basic understanding what programming is can help you in interdisciplinary settings.

Written questions and diagrams are a good idea. But tests can be constructed in many ways. For alternative based questions grading with computer can be more productive and less error-prone, freeing the teacher to focus in more important tasks such as preparing lessons.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#32

Post by monk_e_boy » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #23

jbob2000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner worked at a school that handed out iPads to the middle school students for use in class. Hearing what they use them for just makes me think that Apple needed someone to dump last year's leftover iPads on. It's really dumb stuff. They don't get access to the internet. They get a handful of stupid "learning" apps to use and a social network type thing that can be summed up as "instagram where mommy and teach…

Totally agree here. I'm in the UK and my daughter's primary school has bought dozens of iPads (which are not exactly the most economical tablet), and they are used for things that could otherwise be done (and likely with better results too) in the real world, such as moving objects around for basic maths. Crazy waste of funds.

I disagree. A school without basic technology like computers and tablets? Blimey, you want us to go back to slates and chalk?

Most schools have 3D printers, VR headsets, iPads. We need to teach kids about technology they will be using in 10 - 15 years time when they hit the job market.

We can't send kids out into a career without having used an iPad. Some kids don't have access to tech or the internet at home, now you want to take it away at school? Shame on you.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#33

Post by cmdrfred » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #24

cmdrfred wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median high school teacher salary is $57,200[0], the median salary for the same level of education is $48,500[1] and often works more hours on a yearly basis, has less job security, and has worse benefits. Where does this teachers are underpaid meme come from? [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil... [1] http://study.com/articles/Average_Salary_With_A_Bachelors_De...

Preschool Teachers on the other hand make: $28,570 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/presc... Though they don't need a BS only an associates degree. 1/2 of all teachers quit the profession in the first 5 years. So, the on the ground benefits tend to be worse than you might think. 9 and 1/2 percent don't even last their first year. Turnover in teaching is about four percent higher than other profe…

If teachers unions didn't oppose standardized testing with such vigor it would be a simple matter to find a number of similar schools and increase wages for some time then compare outcomes. As far as I can tell preschool teacher salaries are low simply because we have too many preschool teachers, similarly we have too many fast food and retail workers. Yet we don't demand raises at McDonald's for food safety or quality purposes. Why here?

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#34

Post by jderoner » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

What a great way to build empathy and connection in a sales conversation. These are the type of people I love to meet in EdTech!

I couldn't agree more with the author's assessment. A bit of an extension beyond just training in new tools: we need to help adults in schools understand the value technology can provide in their daily lives before we can expect to see the true potential out of the complex technologies schools are spending billions of dollars on - looking at you blended learning and [fill in other buzzword technologies].

If an adult in a school doesn't appreciate the value that basic everyday tools provide (I'm talking things like calendars and organized email), it's a huge mountain to climb to get them to trust what technology can do to assist their work with kids. It's quite shocking how many great educators fall in this bucket. Then add the labels of 'laggard' and 'luddite' to these people instead of truly understanding them and forget creating any trust and change.

It's a Maslow's thing, honestly, and so much is being spent on things way too far up the pyramid. There's so many low hanging problems to go after first to save great educators time and simultaneously build trust in the power and magic of technology. Right now we're burning all our political (and real) capital on the promises of 'edtech' without truly solving the needs of the people in the seats using them. I fear where it will end up, and the missed opportunity it represents.

Source: I've been working with all types of schools throughout the US, with heavy exposure in NYC.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#35

Post by Balgair » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #14

Jtsummers wrote: post #2

While interesting, and anecdotally seems correct to me, does anyone here with a background in education and/or education technology have any pointers on actionable ways to use technology more effectively? This piece never seems to get to that point, other than strongly encouraging training for teachers (that they provide if you go with their solutions).

My partner worked at a school that handed out iPads to the middle school students for use in class. Hearing what they use them for just makes me think that Apple needed someone to dump last year's leftover iPads on. It's really dumb stuff. They don't get access to the internet. They get a handful of stupid "learning" apps to use and a social network type thing that can be summed up as "instagram where mommy and teach…

I'll echo as well. My wife's classrooms use chromebooks. Due to 'security issues', the computers can only run a hand-full of java applications for the few labs where they do in fact need the computers. These are, if I'm generous, a decade out of date and 'clunky'. Additionally, they are required to login to the central district server before they can use the chromebook (student ID #, etc). Trouble is, there are 35+ students in the classroom, and the wireless routers only can support ~15 chromebooks. The kids end up in a cycle of booting each other off the wireless routers. That is only for one classroom, typically there are ~7 classrooms in the range of that single router which kids can try to log into with their cellphone, further increasing the issues. Also, for the entire school, there is only a single 4GB line out to the central district server for ~2000 kids and associated staff, and that central server has been under DDoS attack from the IoT take-overs from October. State mandated testing of only the freshmen (~700 students), via these chromebooks, is scheduled to take 6 weeks due to these issues and they are not expecting the student to be able to submit these computerized tests even still. Effectively, their school is still in ~1992 with some dilapidated chomebooks and 'smart-boards' stuck in closets like neo-Luddites. Oh, and the voters decided to cut a further 30% from the budget, so now its looking like ~52 kids per classroom next year. We are, obviously, changing districts.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#36

Post by germinalphrase » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

I'm a high school teacher. I've worked in rural/urban/suburban districts with wildly varied student demographics and school resources. The largest tech-related improvements to my teaching have not come from the availability of "edtech" - but from run of the mill productivity software (Email/Google Docs/etc) and students having reliable access to a computer/internet.

I wasn't familiar with K2 Audiovisual before reading the article, so the "free unlimited training" angle doesn't resonate; however, the base argument being made is sound. Our tools need to support the work we do; if they are a distraction or impediment then they will be ignored. I freely admit that there are some interesting edtech tools being developed, but too many of these tools introduce significant redundant labor, user friction, and/or force me to change my goals/processes to fit their vision of what school is supposed to be.

I have strong feelings on where I think things should go, but I'll just say that there is a lot of low hanging fruit in just helping teachers accomplish the things they already know how to do.

There are a lot of teachers out right now saying, "I know [Kid A] would benefit from [extension/scaffold/resource Y] - but there isn't time to make that from scratch". Teachers know they should be personalizing their curriculum, assessment, and instructional performance for what each kid needs. They will typically even know how to accomplish it.

They are logistically constrained from doing so and most edtech tools aren't offering solutions to the kinds of workflow problems that teachers face everyday.

Edit: I have been drilling down on some ideas with another HN member (andrewwhartion). Principally, focused on teacher workflow tools. Email is in profile.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#37

Post by PaulHoule » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #32

GordonS wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree here. I'm in the UK and my daughter's primary school has bought dozens of iPads (which are not exactly the most economical tablet), and they are used for things that could otherwise be done (and likely with better results too) in the real world, such as moving objects around for basic maths. Crazy waste of funds.

I disagree. A school without basic technology like computers and tablets? Blimey, you want us to go back to slates and chalk? Most schools have 3D printers, VR headsets, iPads. We need to teach kids about technology they will be using in 10 - 15 years time when they hit the job market. We can't send kids out into a career without having used an iPad. Some kids don't have access to tech or the internet at home, now yo…

I visited a local trade school last week and was shocked to see Pentium // motherboards, discrete sound cards, etc. in the technology classroom.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#38

Post by kerrsclyde » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #2

While interesting, and anecdotally seems correct to me, does anyone here with a background in education and/or education technology have any pointers on actionable ways to use technology more effectively? This piece never seems to get to that point, other than strongly encouraging training for teachers (that they provide if you go with their solutions).

I work in a UK school (part time technician not teacher) and we have hardly any budget assigned to hardware, it's make do and mend constantly.

The move now seems to be to teach coding via apps with friendly graphical interfaces, 10 years ago it was based around learning MS Office apps.

I've worked in tech for nearly 20 years and the most important skill I learnt was to touch type. Then HTML, which lead me to simple scripting, and onwards.

I'm not sure of the logic of teaching 11 year olds to code when some of them don't know how to copy and paste.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#39

Post by throwaway729 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #33

Retric wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preschool Teachers on the other hand make: $28,570 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/presc... Though they don't need a BS only an associates degree. 1/2 of all teachers quit the profession in the first 5 years. So, the on the ground benefits tend to be worse than you might think. 9 and 1/2 percent don't even last their first year. Turnover in teaching is about four percent higher than other profe…

If teachers unions didn't oppose standardized testing with such vigor it would be a simple matter to find a number of similar schools and increase wages for some time then compare outcomes. As far as I can tell preschool teacher salaries are low simply because we have too many preschool teachers, similarly we have too many fast food and retail workers. Yet we don't demand raises at McDonald's for food safety or quali…

> If teachers unions didn't oppose standardized testing

This of course assumes that standardized testing is actually a good mechanism for measuring outcomes.

Which IMO is an extremely dubious assertion.

A lot of people who opt-out of the public school system at great personal expense do so because they agree with those damn teacher's unions on this very question.

> Why here?

Simple. Because I don't care if my burger sucks but I do care that my kid doesn't get a good early education.

A preschool teacher could triple their salary without leaving the middle class. Depending on the size of their family they might even be living in poverty while working full-time.

People teach for a lot of reasons, but even the most enthusiastic and altruistic person is going to bulk at that kind of a sacrifice. And understandably so.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#40

Post by GordonS » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #32

GordonS wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree here. I'm in the UK and my daughter's primary school has bought dozens of iPads (which are not exactly the most economical tablet), and they are used for things that could otherwise be done (and likely with better results too) in the real world, such as moving objects around for basic maths. Crazy waste of funds.

I disagree. A school without basic technology like computers and tablets? Blimey, you want us to go back to slates and chalk? Most schools have 3D printers, VR headsets, iPads. We need to teach kids about technology they will be using in 10 - 15 years time when they hit the job market. We can't send kids out into a career without having used an iPad. Some kids don't have access to tech or the internet at home, now yo…

> We can't send kids out into a career without having used an iPad

Other than 'app developer', what actual careers involve using specifically an iPad, let alone a generic tablet?

> Most schools have 3D printers, VR headsets, iPads Tablets sure, not necessarily iPads. 3D printers and VR headsets?! I'm talking about primary school, kids aged 5-11 - it would be rare for even secondary schools in the UK to have 3D printers or VR headsets. You used the word 'blimey', so I assume you are either English or taking the piss?!

Most kids get enough of tablets at home nowadays. Christ, all too many parents plonk their kid in front of a tablet and leave them to it for hours at a time.

I'm not saying tech doesn't have a place, it absolutely does, but sometimes the real, tactile world is the best place to learn - like for 5 year-olds learning basic maths, reading and writing.