Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

thecoffeelicious.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 83 posts

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#21

Post by Retric »

GordonS wrote: post #19
Retric wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to compare the %GDP on teacher salary's vs overhead to see where America falls down. Remember, the US system is focused on getting as much government funding into corporate hands. So, paying teachers provide little value, but textbooks, technology, and testing goes directly to company's that know how to keep the pork flowing. http://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/map-how-per-pupi... At a ballpark a 30…

This is a very interesting proposition - imagine what could happen if you paid teachers 120k! Are there any countries that do pay teachers very highly?

Tenured teachers can become very expensive in the US, and they have significant retirement benefits. But, high pay is also in high cost of living areas.

Luxembourg teacher salaries begin at 73,700 euros (79,920 USD), http://www.wort.lu/en/luxembourg/starting-salaries-of-73-700... Germany hits second place.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#22

Post by rattray »

FireBeyond wrote: post #3

The cookware analogy is a really good one. A similar one can be seen in the arts: "That's an amazing photo. You must have a really good camera!" which you see here and there. As opposed to: "That's an amazing painting. You must have really good brushes!" (Disclaimer: I'm a photographer and I do know that the quality of the lens and sensor is going to play some role in the output, leaving aside things like Photoshop.…

Right, but bad cookware isn't usually so bad it prevents you from cooking.

Bad educational technology can get in the way of teaching and learning. Errors/bugs and confusing UX can cause lengthy delays in the classroom.

Teachers can easily spend 15 minutes running around playing IT support when students are using a new technology – out of a 50 minute class which was scheduled in 5-minute increments.

That doesn't mean it needs to be "beautiful, seamless" software like we tend to idolize. Or the most featureful or innovative. It can be, but getting bog-standard basics working without confusion or errors is far more important. I certainly agree with the author on that.

(Source: previously cofounded an edtech startup, spent time in many classrooms observing these things).

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#23

Post by GordonS »

jbob2000 wrote: post #14
Jtsummers wrote: post #2

While interesting, and anecdotally seems correct to me, does anyone here with a background in education and/or education technology have any pointers on actionable ways to use technology more effectively? This piece never seems to get to that point, other than strongly encouraging training for teachers (that they provide if you go with their solutions).

My partner worked at a school that handed out iPads to the middle school students for use in class. Hearing what they use them for just makes me think that Apple needed someone to dump last year's leftover iPads on. It's really dumb stuff. They don't get access to the internet. They get a handful of stupid "learning" apps to use and a social network type thing that can be summed up as "instagram where mommy and teach…

Totally agree here. I'm in the UK and my daughter's primary school has bought dozens of iPads (which are not exactly the most economical tablet), and they are used for things that could otherwise be done (and likely with better results too) in the real world, such as moving objects around for basic maths. Crazy waste of funds.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#24

Post by Retric »

cmdrfred wrote: post #20
dayvid wrote: post #9

I taught English in Japan for 2 years. I realized that the they spend less on education than America and have better results. The solution to education problems isn't throwing money at it. Or at least spend it on teacher salaries, right?

The median high school teacher salary is $57,200[0], the median salary for the same level of education is $48,500[1] and often works more hours on a yearly basis, has less job security, and has worse benefits. Where does this teachers are underpaid meme come from? [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil... [1] http://study.com/articles/Average_Salary_With_A_Bachelors_De...

Preschool Teachers on the other hand make: $28,570 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/presc... Though they don't need a BS only an associates degree.

1/2 of all teachers quit the profession in the first 5 years. So, the on the ground benefits tend to be worse than you might think. 9 and 1/2 percent don't even last their first year. Turnover in teaching is about four percent higher than other professions. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-do...

PS: High school also pays much better on average in large part because you need to deal with high school students.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#25

Post by XorNot »

milesrout wrote: post #16
badminton1 wrote: post #6

Many schools do not make proper use of computer labs. While you could teach practical skills such as - how to process images, audio, video - how to code - math beyond silly games featuring anthropomorphic neotenized animals - workshops for chess and go - use one of the awesome open source software for chemistry, geometry, astronomy, etc... Only use for computers is for people to write documents, search online, print…

>While you could teach practical skills such as Those aren't practical skills that need to be taught to secondary school students. They need to learn mathematics, writing, reading, literature, science, etc. They don't need to learn how to code, they don't need to learn how to make memes in Paint or youtube videos of themselves playing minecraft, nor how to play irrelevant (if fun) games like Chess. >Only use for comp…

The world has moved on from when you were in high school. And you're here, which meant you basically won the lucky-draw of "how did you spend your free time and how did you parents support it".

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#27

Post by jbob2000 »

GordonS wrote: post #23
jbob2000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner worked at a school that handed out iPads to the middle school students for use in class. Hearing what they use them for just makes me think that Apple needed someone to dump last year's leftover iPads on. It's really dumb stuff. They don't get access to the internet. They get a handful of stupid "learning" apps to use and a social network type thing that can be summed up as "instagram where mommy and teach…

Totally agree here. I'm in the UK and my daughter's primary school has bought dozens of iPads (which are not exactly the most economical tablet), and they are used for things that could otherwise be done (and likely with better results too) in the real world, such as moving objects around for basic maths. Crazy waste of funds.

Yes! Thank you! Kids are sensory learners! They need to be able to hold, touch, taste, smell, and feel things to learn! But instead, we get a fucking screen that you poke at? Come the fuck on.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#28

Post by monk_e_boy »

jbob2000 wrote: post #14
Jtsummers wrote: post #2

While interesting, and anecdotally seems correct to me, does anyone here with a background in education and/or education technology have any pointers on actionable ways to use technology more effectively? This piece never seems to get to that point, other than strongly encouraging training for teachers (that they provide if you go with their solutions).

My partner worked at a school that handed out iPads to the middle school students for use in class. Hearing what they use them for just makes me think that Apple needed someone to dump last year's leftover iPads on. It's really dumb stuff. They don't get access to the internet. They get a handful of stupid "learning" apps to use and a social network type thing that can be summed up as "instagram where mommy and teach…

We have iPads in school and they can be really useful. You just need to use them -- which comes down to teacher training.

Tell your partner to look up QR codes, we put different ones up around the room. QR code takes them to a web page with info on it. We use different codes (or URLs) for differentiation - smart kids get wikipedia or something hard, stupid kids get a simpler page or a video.

Does she use kahoot quizzes on them? Or socrative? Both work well.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#29

Post by throwaway729 »

scandox wrote: post #4

The author needs a good editor. There's something consistently "off" in both the style and the personality of this article. It made it very hard for me to assess whether what they are actually saying is worthwhile. Also the calculation mentioned in the title (and which he strangely calls 'archaic') is totally spurious.

Definitely. Even the subtitle is more difficult to follow than necessary because of pointless redundancy. The first few sentences contain many canonical examples of bad writing patterns that get in the way of communication (had had). Nothing grammatically incorrect. Just very simple ideas written in a way that's very difficult to follow.

For anyone else who had trouble parsing the article, here's a TL;DR:

1. Why buy fancy top-of-the-line hardware when something cheap and utilitarian will do just fine?

2. The author's figure is made up. He takes an estimate of total spending and then assumes 70% of it was wasted. Based on unsubstantiated personal anecdote. But there's a page-long rant about cookware written in cringe-worthy style.

My take:

I'm sympathetic with (1). But I also know some people in K-12 IT. They're professionals with some accounting education who know how to perform a reasonable cost-benefit analysis.

Sometimes money gets wasted on expensive toys.

But sometimes it's less expensive to stick with Macs or Windows machines than retrain hundreds of teachers on Chrome OS or whatever. Sometimes there's bundling and the 30% or 70% that never gets used represented a 0% additional cost to the school. And sometimes people are just stupid.

Re: Why Classroom Technology Is Costing More Than Its Worth (2016)

#30

Post by dmreedy »

Jtsummers wrote: post #2

While interesting, and anecdotally seems correct to me, does anyone here with a background in education and/or education technology have any pointers on actionable ways to use technology more effectively? This piece never seems to get to that point, other than strongly encouraging training for teachers (that they provide if you go with their solutions).

The classic, cliché-for-a-reason recommendation here is Mindstorms by Seymour Papert. It discusses a very tangible, very realizable, ground-up system of education built on the foundation of the computer as a universal, interactive tool that can meet the needs of any learner. It's a very good read, and a very good starting place if you're curious about this sort of stuff, alongside parallel work from people like Alan Kay and his Dynabook. However, there is a lot of inertia behind the education institution, so even something actionable like the path described in Mindstorms still has a massive uphill battle of winning hearts and minds; just because it's a good idea in principle doesn't mean it's going to be a good idea in practice, or that it's worth the cost of investment when the current system is, under some definition, 'working'.

Still, like a lot of stuff coming out of Computer Science in the 60s, Papert et al. are a good place to go for raw inspiration channeled into consumable, actionable ideas.

Post reply on HN