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The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

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Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#31

Post by specialist »

Shivetya wrote: post #16
exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

Oh please, get off this idea we don't put enough money into education. We put too much, so much so that they ended up hiring people other than teachers and the carry forward costs are too high. You want to fix education in the US, the money must follow the student. Until the school systems themselves are forced to improve by having students want to attend they won't. The recent issue with testing which they said was…

It isn't a money issue.

How does that money get spent?

In other words, it's a governance issue. (Also, I believe, but cannot prove, it's also a scale issue. Large districts should be split up. Would give parents more choice.)

A buddy was CFO for the local school district. Admin swallows half the budget. Real estate investments are poorly managed. Maintenance has been neglected.

Meanwhile, teachers are underpaid, no COL raises for years, student to teacher ratios continue to climb, they're adding "portables" because they ran out of class room space, special needs kids are neglected, programs are cut to the bare minimum.

Et cetera, et cetera.

Yes, we US taxpayers spend a lot education. No, we're not getting our money's worth. No, privatizing via charter schools (reducing transparency and accountability) doesn't help.

Meanwhile, our kids are screwed.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#32

Post by vezzy-fnord »

randcraw wrote: post #28

IMHO, a better strategy for government would be to encourage community colleges to do more, especially: 1) to emphasize skills that are in demand locally, in the community where the school serves, and 2) to provide instruction for more advanced subjects as part of professional continuing education. Of course, they'll need more funds to do this, as badly cash strapped as they are today. For example, I'd dearly like to…

Sounds like what you really want is more decentralized education networks, i.e. democratic free (as in freedom) schools. There's already several of these slowly emerging across the U.S., and indeed carry the advantages of lecturing on all sorts of niche subjects without a formal bureaucracy and instead based on principles of self-governance with a coop-like structure. They're exceptionally adept at serving local communities and the lecturers or educators invited do not undergo a certification process (as is commonly advocated by laissez-faire and left-wing proponents alike).

My suggestion would be to simply extend the accreditation process to such networks, and have more of them appear grassroots on the level of individual communities and neighborhoods.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#33

Post by ThomPete »

dublinben wrote: post #30
ThomPete wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charter schools like Success Academy function by lottery so no cherry picking at all. And keep in mind it was started in Harlem not exactly the best base for the kids with the best resources. The reason why charter schools like Success Academy are popular is because it's strong focus and philosophy.

Every single student in that lottery had to be entered by a parent concerned about their education. That already presents a selection bias that will deliver better testing results than the entire student population.

And every single student who want to go to the public school in Tribecca have to have an address there to be zoned for it. If you want to talk about selection bias thats your case not a lottery.

Plenty of kids in Harlem goes to Success Academy. Most of the kids in Williamsburg comes from fairly low-income families. That was the very premise of the school and why it's popular.

Watch the documentary The Lottery on Netflix it's quite illuminating.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#34

Post by specialist »

ThomPete wrote: post #27
wfo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's a money issue. We pay teachers garbage for working harder than anyone else, who wants to do that job? If you got the A-types who go into finance or law or medicine into teaching you'd see a very different scenario play out. Right now it's essentially all-volunteer. People call it "a labor of love" but a double-time job paid at part-time wages is what they mean. Teachers don't make money or have respect…

It's a parent issue first of all and can be solved without more money. http://i.imgur.com/LglSapk.jpg

Parental involvement is the number one factor for student achievement. Followed by socio-economic stuff, like food, household income, zip code.

Make a ranked list of factors and teacher competency isn't even in the top ten. Which makes all this school reform chatter drive me nuts.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#35

Post by ThomPete »

wfo wrote: post #20
mason240 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All three of those are true with public schools systems.

No. Public schools don't get to pre-select their students and then claim to ourperform other schools because they just picked the best ones. Public schools are not faith-based. Public schools do not have enormous administrative salaries

Neither does charter schools like Success Academy. Instead it's a lottery.

Public shools in NY are zoned so if you want your kid to go to that good school in Tribecca you most probably have to move there.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#36

Post by ThomPete »

mratzloff wrote: post #17
exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

You combined two very important points in #3. For instance, how often do charter schools enroll special education students?

Are Charter Schools Required to Provide Services to Students with Disabilities?

Yes. The responsibility to make a free appropriate public education (FAPE) available to all students with disabilities applies to ALL public schools under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).9 Charter schools are public schools; therefore, they bear the same responsibility.

Who is actually responsible for ensuring that special education services are available to students with disabilities in a charter school? The answer depends on how the charter school is legally identified in the state.

If a charter school is considered to be an independent Local Education Agency (LEA) under its state’s law, that charter school bears the exact same legal requirements for providing special education services as any other LEA (or district).

If a charter school is considered part of an existing LEA, the LEA (or district) retains most or all of the responsibility for special education in the charter school. The charter school is considered a school within that LEA and is responsible for following LEA policy.

http://www.parentcenterhub.org/repository/charters/

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#37

Post by silverbax88 »

randcraw wrote: post #28

IMHO, a better strategy for government would be to encourage community colleges to do more, especially: 1) to emphasize skills that are in demand locally, in the community where the school serves, and 2) to provide instruction for more advanced subjects as part of professional continuing education. Of course, they'll need more funds to do this, as badly cash strapped as they are today. For example, I'd dearly like to…

I agree with this, although it should be noted that most community colleges do not offer anything higher than Associates degrees. I'm not aware of any that actually offer something higher, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a broader statement.

What I'd want to see is expansion of community colleges to include 4 year degrees, and I also support the model of Western Governors, which is much cheaper and allows students to take classes as quickly or as slowly as they can/want.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#38

Post by silverbax88 »

Shivetya wrote: post #16
exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

Oh please, get off this idea we don't put enough money into education. We put too much, so much so that they ended up hiring people other than teachers and the carry forward costs are too high. You want to fix education in the US, the money must follow the student. Until the school systems themselves are forced to improve by having students want to attend they won't. The recent issue with testing which they said was…

I don't even know where to start on what you've stated. So many incorrect statements I just have to move on.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#39

Post by wfo »

ThomPete wrote: post #27
wfo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's a money issue. We pay teachers garbage for working harder than anyone else, who wants to do that job? If you got the A-types who go into finance or law or medicine into teaching you'd see a very different scenario play out. Right now it's essentially all-volunteer. People call it "a labor of love" but a double-time job paid at part-time wages is what they mean. Teachers don't make money or have respect…

It's a parent issue first of all and can be solved without more money. http://i.imgur.com/LglSapk.jpg

Part of that comic is referring to the parent but I think a great deal of it actually refers to the way teachers are treated. They are treated like garbage by parents and administrators alike. They don't get to make any decisions in the classroom, and they are screamed at or fired if anything goes wrong. Parent involvement is actually the root cause of this crisis: the wrong kind of parent involvement however, the parent who thinks the teacher is an idiot and goes into school to "set him/her straight". That's in fact what's happening in the comic.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#40

Post by mwsherman »

Honest question: what is the difference between a “for profit” school and one that ends the year with more than that it started with? If Harvard manages itself such that its endowment increases, is this not a profit? What is the practical, operational difference?
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