Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings • Hacker News Board

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#31

Post by hcrisp » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 3:49 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #28

pdpi wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail (...) fully creating multiple language families for instance These things are related, but in the exact opposite way from what you're suggesting. Tolkien was, first and foremost, a linguist. Language was his passion, and he was of the opinion that, e.g., Esperanto was much more of a dead language than Latin or Ancient Greek are, because Esperanto doesn't hav…

At least that's what he said. The Hobbit for example would / could have been told without the languages, and was at first independent of the Middle Earth.

Relevant quote: "All this only as background to the stories, though languages and names are for me inextricable from the stories. They are and were so to speak an attempt to give a background or a world in which my expressions of linguistic taste could have a function. The stories were comparatively late in coming." From letter 163.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#32

Post by codewithcheese » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 4:17 AM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #20

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

The Dwarf Fortress guys remind me of this kind of obsession. Not that both have to do with dwarves, but that both need a world for their obsession to live in. The DF guys created a world for their incredibly detailed simulations, while Tolkein invented a world for his languages.

Just thought I should point out The Dwarf Fortress guys have a Patreon if you would like to support them https://www.patreon.com/bay12games?ty=h

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#33

Post by Kiro » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 5:52 AM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #17

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

> You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail (...) fully creating multiple language families for instance These things are related, but in the exact opposite way from what you're suggesting. Tolkien was, first and foremost, a linguist. Language was his passion, and he was of the opinion that, e.g., Esperanto was much more of a dead language than Latin or Ancient Greek are, because Esperanto doesn't hav…

> opposite way from what you're suggesting

You're saying the same thing so how is it opposite? Or was the last paragraph added after your reply?

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#34

Post by arethuza » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 12:42 PM UTC

qznc wrote: post #22

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

On the other hand, Tolkien had no clue about geology. If you think about how rivers flow from mountains to oceans, the map of Middleearth is unrealistic. Anduin heads straight towards hills and mountains (Emyn Muil and Osgiliath)? In the north west, Luhn/Lune flows south to the Grey Havens instead of the short way to the northern ocean? The sea of Rhun and Nurnen are both dead (no outflow)? (disclaimer: I still love…

You do get situations where rivers cut through mountain ranges - it can happen when the river existed before the mountain range and as the mountains were pushed up the river continued to cut it's way through:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antecedent_drainage_stream

[NB I sure Tolkien would have approved of the idea of rivers being older than the mountains they cut through].

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#35

Post by mmanfrin » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

ldd wrote: post #30

mmanfrin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a decent nerdwriter video on worldbuilding (and he talks about Tolkien's masterly production of the world of Middle Earth): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6MQHNM2yE I don't fully agree with the thesis of the video, but it's a worthy watch and well reasoned argument.

That was a very interesting video. Could you tell us why you disagree with the video's thesis?

Mainly because I really enjoy immersing myself in the lore of a story/book/series, even at the expense of the story :]

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#36

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Oct 26, 2015, 3:45 PM UTC

qznc wrote: post #22

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

On the other hand, Tolkien had no clue about geology. If you think about how rivers flow from mountains to oceans, the map of Middleearth is unrealistic. Anduin heads straight towards hills and mountains (Emyn Muil and Osgiliath)? In the north west, Luhn/Lune flows south to the Grey Havens instead of the short way to the northern ocean? The sea of Rhun and Nurnen are both dead (no outflow)? (disclaimer: I still love…

I studied geology and none of the river paths in the LOTR map seem particularly unrealistic. Tolkien's map shows local elevation but not absolute elevation, which, when it comes to a river's path, matters more than people think.

For example, the plain between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood could be like the plain in front of the Colorado front range: dead flat, but still at 5,000+ feet in elevation. That would give it plenty of vertical drop to the sea. It's certainly possible that the absolute elevation of the Anduin at the ford at Carrock is similar to the summit of the mountain behind Minas Tirith!

And it takes doesn't take much elevation drop to make a river flow. The Lune would work as drawn if there were cliffs or hills only a couple of hundred feet high on the southern edge of the Bay of Forochel, which could happen with glaciation--and it is known as the bay of ice in the books.