Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings • Hacker News Board

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#21

Post by Dove » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 9:14 PM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

> creating multiple language families for instance

I remember reading in one of the introductions that he enjoyed working on the languages for their own sake, and would work on that if he didn't feel like working on the story. It's not as though everything he did was at this level of detail -- architecture, technology, biology, it all varies in how much work he put into filling it out. But the languages were a passion for him.

I don't think it's so much that he created the languages in service to the world and the story as that it's a core piece of the expression. I think of the series as a work of hard linguistic fiction (by analogy with hard science fiction), and seen in that light, written by a professional in the field, it really doesn't seem crazy at all that they're as developed as they are.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#22

Post by qznc » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 9:29 PM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

On the other hand, Tolkien had no clue about geology. If you think about how rivers flow from mountains to oceans, the map of Middleearth is unrealistic. Anduin heads straight towards hills and mountains (Emyn Muil and Osgiliath)? In the north west, Luhn/Lune flows south to the Grey Havens instead of the short way to the northern ocean? The sea of Rhun and Nurnen are both dead (no outflow)?

(disclaimer: I still love and respect Tolkiens work! Especially the Silmarillion.)

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#23

Post by Steko » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #12

mmanfrin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ravenna is where the Western Roman capital moved to (402-476) in an effort to be more easily defended; likewise the capital of Gondor was moved from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith to more easily defend it.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Nice try San Marino stealth marketing council.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#24

Post by vlehto » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

qznc wrote: post #22

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

On the other hand, Tolkien had no clue about geology. If you think about how rivers flow from mountains to oceans, the map of Middleearth is unrealistic. Anduin heads straight towards hills and mountains (Emyn Muil and Osgiliath)? In the north west, Luhn/Lune flows south to the Grey Havens instead of the short way to the northern ocean? The sea of Rhun and Nurnen are both dead (no outflow)? (disclaimer: I still love…

The map doesn't show elevations. Medieval maps work that way, they only show notable hills and cliffs, but no slow descents.

Here's similar from Norway

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/old-map-norway-11431502.jpg

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#25

Post by azernik » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 10:24 PM UTC

mmanfrin wrote: post #14

davidw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Wouldn't have made much of a difference as Odoacer simply bypassed Ravenna (and would have bypassed San Marino) on his way to sacking Rome. Rome at that time had fallen far from grace, but the sacking was the nail on the coffin. The true strength of Rome had already left, gone east to Constantinople. 4th/5th century western Rome was just a slow and painful decay. The East survived until 1453. Fun little fact: the Rom…

Which was the point - Rome was too easy to attack, so the government moved to Ravenna so that when it happened, at least the emperor and bureaucracy wouldn't be at risk.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#26

Post by selimthegrim » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 11:48 PM UTC

qznc wrote: post #22

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

On the other hand, Tolkien had no clue about geology. If you think about how rivers flow from mountains to oceans, the map of Middleearth is unrealistic. Anduin heads straight towards hills and mountains (Emyn Muil and Osgiliath)? In the north west, Luhn/Lune flows south to the Grey Havens instead of the short way to the northern ocean? The sea of Rhun and Nurnen are both dead (no outflow)? (disclaimer: I still love…

Tolkien being Tolkien, he probably chalks it up to the post Morgoth/Feanor and post Numenor sunderings of the world.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#27

Post by lotyrin » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 11:49 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #20

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

The Dwarf Fortress guys remind me of this kind of obsession. Not that both have to do with dwarves, but that both need a world for their obsession to live in. The DF guys created a world for their incredibly detailed simulations, while Tolkein invented a world for his languages.

They're basically making Tolkien-the-software. I'm sure they consider the current language system to be just a placeholder for when they have the code to generate and mutate/mix grammars, phonology and vocabulary based on details of what happens to civilizations during the generated history.

I hope their work continues for quite some time.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#28

Post by eru » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 2:12 AM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #17

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

> You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail (...) fully creating multiple language families for instance These things are related, but in the exact opposite way from what you're suggesting. Tolkien was, first and foremost, a linguist. Language was his passion, and he was of the opinion that, e.g., Esperanto was much more of a dead language than Latin or Ancient Greek are, because Esperanto doesn't hav…

At least that's what he said. The Hobbit for example would / could have been told without the languages, and was at first independent of the Middle Earth.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#29

Post by eru » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 2:16 AM UTC

baghira wrote: post #15

davidw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Trouble is, there was no San Marino at the time. While I have no idea whether or not this was the inspiration for Tolkien, some element sort of match, from the capital being moved to the following reconquest of Ravenna under Byzantine rule, and also the presence of marshes to the north of the city (if Middle Earth map is oriented North-top South-bottom, which I'm not sure).

> (if Middle Earth map is oriented North-top South-bottom, which I'm not sure).

It is. They explicitly mention that the Dwarfish orientation is different (east up) in the Hobbit, I think.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#30

Post by ldd » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 3:07 AM UTC

mmanfrin wrote: post #11

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

There is a decent nerdwriter video on worldbuilding (and he talks about Tolkien's masterly production of the world of Middle Earth): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6MQHNM2yE I don't fully agree with the thesis of the video, but it's a worthy watch and well reasoned argument.

That was a very interesting video. Could you tell us why you disagree with the video's thesis?