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Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#31

Post by vbezhenar »

richardwigley wrote: post #16

Odd and interesting to read. I would have guessed a larger percentage of Russians got their views online. I would also think that most online news written in Russian would be under control of state media. In which case, if they did start to use the Internet to find news then nothing would change. Maybe a Russian nytimes.com?

I don't think that majority of young Russians even watch TV. Most of young people getting information from Internet. And there are many different points of views in Russian media space. Though main news sources are heavily influenced by Kremlin, that's true. But those who want to find an alternative point of view, will do that without any problems.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#32

Post by ajuc »

drinchev wrote: post #2

Ah... Media these days. I can't trust anyone, anymore. I guess, best thing to do is not to have opinion at all. I'm having a GPS in my pocket, I can browse most of the cities from my computer through Google Earth. I can talk to my watch, which replies and sends messages for me, but not a single country can provide a satellite image of the exact location of a fired rocket or any other evidence, like radar logs of some…

There was good speach about the exact effect that modern propaganda has by Timothy Snyder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw

The whole point of this kind of propaganda is to make people go "meh, everybody's lying, so I just won't trust anybody".

You have police shooting black unarmed teen, and want people not to be angry about that - make a panel discussion with 12 people telling 12 versions of what happened, 11 of which blame the teenager. Accuse every other source of information of bias and lies. Many people will think "there's sth to this, I won't know the truth anyway, not my problem, let's ignore this issue".

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#33

Post by ctdonath »

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take, all sounding wonderful but crushingly impossible in implementation a la USSR)?

(Obviously I'm biased, but I am trying to make an earnest question. Russian communism sounded great too, even as you note: your parents still fall for the propaganda. Wish I could ask in a more neutral tone, but it's an inherently divisive subject.)

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#34

Post by oleks »

jmnicolas wrote: post #22
calgoo wrote: post #13

What I don't understand is how so many people can still watch TV news and believe what they say. Every news show I have seen in the last 10 years or more is complete BS and exists in a reality bubble where bad things happen but everything is fine as a kitten was saved in the end of the show. Why do they hold so much power? I can understand 50+ year olds maybe, but young people? Are you telling me young people look on…

What I don't understand is why you trust this article if you don't trust TV. The fact that it's written doesn't mean they don't lie. And what's even more troubling is that nowadays Russian propaganda is more believable than the western one ...

The fact that you are having this conversation is a good start.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#35

Post by 3princip »

Avalaxy wrote: post #20
3princip wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin is manipulative and dangerous, while the US and NATO continue to expand their military influence worldwide, but they're benign, right?

That's a fallacy. NATO is being invited by these countries. Eastern European countries are basically begging for NATO protection. What Russia does there is pretty different, they invide a sovereign country that doesn't want them there. Of course if you're talking about the useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you're right.

Well, I live in (South) Eastern Europe. The whole region is awash with puppet political elites and western backed/owned media. The result of that propaganda (which doesn't negate the existence of Russian propaganda or the bad experiences of ex-soviet block countries) in the wake of a victory in the cold-war is a very big reason for the current situation.

Regarding wars and interventions, I'm not just talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, (ex)Yugoslavia and Latin America. I'm also talking about the aggressive stance the US is taking in the south China sea as we speak. I'm also thinking about it's operations in Africa.

If the US has a right to a global military presence, then others have too. Or is American exceptionalism real?

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#36

Post by igor_a »

qwerta wrote: post #27

Why Russians should not believe it? - Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago [1] - It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down [2]. - It happened on Ukraine territory, most likely by Ukraine citizens. - Buk 9M38 is not Russian missile, but Soviet (that includes Ukraine). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 [2] https://en.wikipedia…

"It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down"

with dozens of Ukrainian planes shoot down. (who shot them? where did they got weapons for that? where did they got skills for that?)

"Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago" How many planes (korean planes to be specific) were shot down by USSR (that includes Russia)

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#37

Post by calgoo »

jmnicolas wrote: post #22
calgoo wrote: post #13

What I don't understand is how so many people can still watch TV news and believe what they say. Every news show I have seen in the last 10 years or more is complete BS and exists in a reality bubble where bad things happen but everything is fine as a kitten was saved in the end of the show. Why do they hold so much power? I can understand 50+ year olds maybe, but young people? Are you telling me young people look on…

What I don't understand is why you trust this article if you don't trust TV. The fact that it's written doesn't mean they don't lie. And what's even more troubling is that nowadays Russian propaganda is more believable than the western one ...

I don't trust the article, but I have at least read different sources on the information, including some of the Russian ones. And while I cant say 100% what is true or not, I generally distrust news when they are changing their stance way to often. Another reason is that Russia is the aggressor in this war, and that in itself is a very big red sign saying "watch out". I apply the same to the US, UK or any other country that is attacking another country to "save them" or whatever excuse they come up with. I'm not saying that we don't need to help out in certain situations, but the current situation is out of control.

As another example, I currently live in Spain, and the government here lie to our faces and then hide from reporters so they cant ask any important questions. Here in Cataluña the people where tricked again into voting for a guy who is "promising" independence, and people believe it and shut up about any corruption or other issues that related to what's going on. They just blame Madrid and Germany for those issues, as that's what the TV tells them to do.

Edit: Added missing last sentence...

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#38

Post by ddorian43 »

Htsthbjig wrote: post #29

Thank you New York Times, the News Group that Snowden could not use to whistle blow because it is a direct branch of US government, for reminding us Western how free we are against propaganda. We can really trust the 6 companies that own all media groups in the US, or the two news agencies that control all what we watch in the West. Never believe that the Government of the US have ever thought about controlling these…

I think you have to give the script to the military to get FREE access to the machines/ships/tanks. You get free access and they get free propaganda.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#39

Post by 3princip »

korisnik wrote: post #23
3princip wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin is manipulative and dangerous, while the US and NATO continue to expand their military influence worldwide, but they're benign, right?

Countries of Eastern Europe are willingly joining NATO because they don't want to be bullied by a certain country in the east. My country joined NATO because, altho not under direct threat from Russia, Russia supported our enemy (going as far as sending special forces to work undercover) in a very recent conflict and as such I couldn't give a shit if Russia feels that their imperialism is threatened by my security. N…

You're Croatian I guess, so your country was basically created with US/NATO assistance.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#40

Post by dijit »

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I have an inverse story from yours.

I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american.

We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics.

I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year.

What I saw was not "good" vs "evil" or, "propaganda" vs "truth".

What I saw was exactly the same shit, I spoke to natives in both places, I travelled around.

Russia has it's side of the story and America has theirs, America is good at spreading it's propaganda outside of it's borders and fostering the image of "the beacon of light and purity of the world" but those who actually take a sceptical or inquisitive eye to America see an insidious underbelly which is only parabled by that in Russia.

Russia is guilty of being no more evil than the US government, if anything they're more honest with their intentions.

The differing factor is that we bought the kool-aid.

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