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A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

jeffarchibald.ca

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Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#291

Post by einhverfr »

dclara wrote: post #285
einhverfr wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can do 8 hours of light-weight development easily enough, things like minor bugfixes, minor tweaks, etc. and carry that on for months if needed. But for stuff like coding from scratch, aside from brief bursts, I usually find that 4 hours is a good general guide. Obviously when nearing release, the long stretches of 8-10 hours of coding is going to be much lighter. Most of the tweaks are going to be minor, you hope,…

Yes, on top of the 40 hours of intensive work including design, coding, learn a new technology with intensive reading, or even tackling business/marketing strategies and tactics, etc., the rest hours are on lighter work related things, such as email, news, phone calls, book-keeping, etc. Regarding how to dividing the time slots, my usual practice is to concentrate on one major task and get it done completely in the s…

At the same time, I find that being willing to quit and come back is important to. I usually devote blocks of 4 hours to achievable tasks in that case. However if I run into problems getting things where they need to go, after 2-3 blocks, I may shelve the task and come back later as needed.

There are times when quitting is necessary for perspective, and where you can get the same task done quicker by quitting and moving onto something else, and then when you need to, coming back, than you would by pushing for a deadline. Learning to recognize that there are signs of "I don't really understand this problem, so I should come back after I have a chance to digest my failure today" and recognizing when that's a good idea takes some time though.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#292

Post by einhverfr »

ExpiredLink wrote: post #157
TacticalCoder wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed... And most of the friends around me who made it big also played it hard. When Broadcom was nowhere several employees number xxx (with xxx less than 300) were, while in crunch-mode, sleeping in their trucks , on the parking lot, to deliver chip plans on time. Stock options have been good for them the day Broadcom was worth $12bn. I've got a few friends who started a 3D-rendering business for TV ads, short movi…

Work smart, not hard.

A better way to phrase this is that "it's better to work smarter, than it is to work harder."

Also working smarter requires taking a step back from what you are doing to think about how you are doing it. The ability to do this regarding a task is inversely proportional to the amount of your time you spend on the task. This is why I find 60-80 hours works ok for me but that includes a large number of different kinds of work, and it includes all my personal project time.

To live is to work. To work is to produce things (whether it's dinner for your family or a cool new app). Humans have an inherent need to be creative. But neuroplasticity (ala "Modern Times" with Charley Chaplan) is a real problem here, and if you spend 60 hours a week writing software, you will not be able to step back and really think through how to get more done faster.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#293

Post by beedogs »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #56

This false dichotomy is seriously getting annoying. If 60 hours is sustainable for you, do it. If only 30 hours is sustainable for you, do that instead. But stop imposing onto others what is right or wrong when there are so many factors at play. Some of my most productive memories are summers studying and working for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week (= 72 hours). I didn't get tired, burned out, or anything. Another summ…

Regarding friends/partners/etc. If the amount of hours you want to work isn't compatible with your partner's expectations... get a new partner.

Or, hey, just go live in a cave with your sad, forever-alone 60-hour-a-week self.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#294

Post by dclara »

einhverfr wrote: post #291
dclara wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, on top of the 40 hours of intensive work including design, coding, learn a new technology with intensive reading, or even tackling business/marketing strategies and tactics, etc., the rest hours are on lighter work related things, such as email, news, phone calls, book-keeping, etc. Regarding how to dividing the time slots, my usual practice is to concentrate on one major task and get it done completely in the s…

At the same time, I find that being willing to quit and come back is important to. I usually devote blocks of 4 hours to achievable tasks in that case. However if I run into problems getting things where they need to go, after 2-3 blocks, I may shelve the task and come back later as needed. There are times when quitting is necessary for perspective, and where you can get the same task done quicker by quitting and mov…

You reminded me in some cases I did, but I don't feel well about that. But I've already spent too much time on one item, if I didn't quit, it would delay the rest of the tasks.

Most of the time, I have to do extra hours of work to get it completed. Otherwise, it's hard get chance to revisit again unless it's a critical feature or bug.

Another strategy is, just like what you mentioned, once we are stuck at somewhere for more than 4 hours, we have to move to other tasks, give it up temporarily and later on when we come back, maybe things changed or mind changed, it's no longer that hard any more.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#295

Post by einhverfr »

StavrosK wrote: post #228
Shivetya wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sixty hours is fine when you enjoy your work. Sixty hours a week was a short week in the old days, the conveniences of a modern society allow us to choose more free time should we want it, all you have to do is venture outside of our comfortable environments and you will find people wishing 60 was the max. Having grown up on a farm all I can say is, you don't notice it unless the wrong stuff keeps piling up. Its amaz…

It's a bit easier when your job doesn't require you to think all the time. You get really depleted after a few hours, and you need more rest than the physical fatigue farm work brings.

The best way I find to deal with the depletion is to go do something physical for a bit. Gardening is good for that, and working from home makes that easy. I have known a few other IT folks who work from home to find this as well. It's anecdotal but it's interesting nonetheless.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#296

Post by wellboy »

scribu wrote: post #283
wellboy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But have you never tried to start your own company as creating wealth by working for someone else just doesn't work? Looking at the failure rate of startups of 82% as a first timer, by starting your own company you have just 40-folded your chances to success.

That 82% failure rate seems suspiciously low. May I ask where you got that figure from?

Sure, http://fundersandfounders.com/will-i-succeed-with-my-startup....

There are several other numbers out there, but it's all in the 75%-90% range. So 10% chance to become a millionaire, thus free to do everything you want and I will learn so much in the meantime? I take it.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#297

Post by rickhanlonii »

lutusp wrote: post #128
rickhanlonii wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a valuable distinction; Kahneman did not win the Nobel for psychology, and in fact there is no such thing. But to call psychology a pseudoscience confuses either the definition of science or of psychology. In Thinking, Fast and Slow , Kahneman spends the majority of each chapter outlining scientific studies in detail, many that he personally carried out, making the text a 500 page atlas of counter-examples.

> But to call psychology a pseudoscience confuses either the definition of science or of psychology. It certainly doesn't call into question the definition of science -- that's well-established by a consensus among scientists. The consensus is secure enough that science is now written into law, for example laws meant to prevent Creationism from being taught as science in science classrooms. Here is an excerpt from on…

>Because psychology's topic is the mind, and because the mind is not a physical entity, psychology cannot produce empirical, falsifiable evidence ("testable against the empirical world") to supports its claims. Therefore, based on society's accepted definition of science, psychology is not a science.

Psychology is defined as the scientific study of mental functions and behavior--not the mind. Therefore, since scientists publish peer-reviewed scientific papers with empirical, falsifiable, evidence for theories about mental functions and behavior, Psychology is a science.

And as I said before, in Thinking, Fast and Slow Kahneman outlines many of these studies, and the citation section of his book serves as an atlas of counter-examples to your position.

I've refuted the central point of your argument, and therefore have no logical obligation to address the rest of your points. If you intend to argue, you must necessarily refute my claim by proving the studies I cite in my argument either are not scientific or do not concern mental functions or behavior.

It's a long list so if I were you I would get up early, eat my Wheaties, and instead of trying to prove me wrong, think about how ridiculous you carried yourself in this thread.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#298

Post by beedogs »

wazoox wrote: post #255
memracom wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me guess. You put in 3 times the effort but did not get 3 times the salary and at the end of it all you didn't even get a bonus to compensate you fairly for the health issues that were created. Nowadays, if anybody finds themselves in this position, take Aspirin every evening as a prophylactic (talk to your doctor) and cut out all junk food. Eat lots of vegetables, and a bit of meat but avoid sweet things and car…

In fact I've got a small bonus in the end, something like an added month of salary. I'm allergic to aspirin, and of course for months I've survived on all sort of deliverable junk foods: sandwiches, pizzas, bad sushis and the like. As a team I think we did quite OK. Imagine the tension when you're live in front of 2 billion viewers, and you know the friggin' software just barely works for one hour at a time before cr…

I'm guessing you did software for FIFA.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#299

Post by craigvn »

Codhisattva wrote: post #162
overgryphon wrote: post #160

From a manager perspective, you wouldn't want an employee working 60+ hours on a regular basis. When actual crunch-time happened, that employee wouldn't have room to work more. You likely wouldn't be able to meet expectations, because your under-staffing problem had been hidden by regularly overworking some employees.

Crunch time is a management anti-pattern.

Exactly. Crunch time means oop's management stuffed up, now fix it for us.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#300

Post by beedogs »

Shivetya wrote: post #206
x0054 wrote: post #181

To everyone who jumped in to comment that 60+ hours at work is just fine, because they can do it. I have to say, stop equating work with progress. Busiest time in my life was when I was studying for the California Bar exam. According to the program I was doing, I was expected to study 12 hours a day. Most people I knew did 12+ hours of studying at least, all of them passed the bar. I did about 6 hours a day (+ other…

Sixty hours is fine when you enjoy your work. Sixty hours a week was a short week in the old days, the conveniences of a modern society allow us to choose more free time should we want it, all you have to do is venture outside of our comfortable environments and you will find people wishing 60 was the max. Having grown up on a farm all I can say is, you don't notice it unless the wrong stuff keeps piling up. Its amaz…

Sixty hours a week was a short week in the old days

Back when we "employed" children and didn't have maternity leave? I don't think there are any reasons to hearken back to those days.

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