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A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

jeffarchibald.ca

121–130 of 323 posts

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#121
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So most people don't make it. Do you really think that you're telling him something he doesn't already know? Some people are served well by humility, others aren't. Just because humility and practicality works for you (and me, I might add) doesn't mean that it's the approach for everyone.

I just want people to see that there are many paths to a fulfilling, excellent life. In this community, we have so many models of two of those paths--making FU money, or achieving technical mastery--and so few public models of other options, like the patient parent, the spouse to an emotionally-troubled partner, the upstanding community member, etc. I understand that some people people who attempt one of these goals…

>I do mind people who devote their lives to one of these goals because they don't see the other options or know themselves well enough to see that they're working hard in the wrong direction.

Seems a bit presumptuous to judge how others choose to live their lives...

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My name is Rick and I'm a 80 hour a week guy. I'm 26, single, and have no pets. I have a family and friends, but I'm very transparent about my work habits and priorities as a full-stack engineer. Being so young, I see myself as training to be the person I want to be in the future. The best programmers in the world worked at it relentlessly. Sure, there are variances in the amount that they all worked, and some did it…

Here's another perspective. I had that exact same attitude when I was 26 and single and had no pets. "I'm going to get awesome at embedded C++ programming, work my ass off in my 20s so I write world-changing software in my 30s and I can retire in my 40s." No pain, no gain, live at work, 80 hour days, all night caffeine and coding sessions. F-yea! I'm a varsity software jock training for the Career Olympics! Almost 2…

But have you never tried to start your own company as creating wealth by working for someone else just doesn't work?

Looking at the failure rate of startups of 82% as a first timer, by starting your own company you have just 40-folded your chances to success.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#124
post #40

This article doesn't pass the smell test. There is nothing magical about 40 hours per week. 60 hours is just as arbitrary as 40. Also, it probably originated when people did actual physical labor, and so it wont apply to dev work. Countless people in the sciences have toiled day and night to bring about great discoveries - and that's a good thing. Question: Do non-software people (I'm thinking Scientists, Mathematici…

Complain about 60 hours/week? Rarely. Work 60 hours/week? Rarely. Professors tend to put in roughly 40 to 80 hours depending on their scientific and organisational workload, but most others hardly ever work 60 hours/week with an average of 40-ish. But then, nobody really measures how much time they put in, and you have to keep in mind that in science, the ‘passive work’ done sort-of in the background while doing some…

>Work 60 hours/week? Rarely.

Do you have any data on this? Some quick data points that I found :

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf06302/nsf06302.pdf

http://www.stthomas.edu/media/hollorancenter/pdf/Should-We-B...

http://arthropodecology.com/2012/10/25/the-work-life-balance...

A lot of people seem to work more than 40 hours per week. I'm sure some of them do complain. Maybe devs are just more likely to blog about it.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#125

I work 40 hours a week at maximum - most weeks I work about 34 to 38 hours. You 80 hours a week guys, what the hell are you doing with your time? Are you divorced? No family? No friends? Is 'disrupting' an industry really that important to you?

My name is Rick and I'm a 80 hour a week guy. I'm 26, single, and have no pets. I have a family and friends, but I'm very transparent about my work habits and priorities as a full-stack engineer. Being so young, I see myself as training to be the person I want to be in the future. The best programmers in the world worked at it relentlessly. Sure, there are variances in the amount that they all worked, and some did it…

I was the same, I had the same opinion, and I thought it's going to last forever.

Then my daughter was born, and while I had no real idea of why on Earth would a 3 months old baby who cannot really communicate in any meaningful way change anything -- I became a different person, so much happier than I used to be. :)

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#126
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't about disrupting an industry. It's about money.

The art of working though is to earn as much money as possible whilst doing the least amount of work. 60 hour a week people haven't got that idea yet.

Some of us do. I was semi retired at 40. At 47 I'm working again, at roughly 60 hours a week, because I love what I am doing and the money is stupidly great. I'll stop again right around 50 to 52, assuming the work keeps paying this well and I keep having fun.

I always find these types of discussions interesting. It's never about things like work ethic, efficiency, or even skill, it seems to devolve in to what everyone thinks is the ideal work schedule for someone else. I have friends that think I am crazy for working like I am now. I don't really care, I am happy, the clients are happy, and my bank account is most certainly happy. But I would never tell someone else they should work as much as I do, or that they should only work 30 hours, or some other random number of hours.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#127
post #40

This article doesn't pass the smell test. There is nothing magical about 40 hours per week. 60 hours is just as arbitrary as 40. Also, it probably originated when people did actual physical labor, and so it wont apply to dev work. Countless people in the sciences have toiled day and night to bring about great discoveries - and that's a good thing. Question: Do non-software people (I'm thinking Scientists, Mathematici…

Filmmaking is an area where you work a lot . And then you don't, because you're trying to get work. But when you're working, to say that it takes over your life is a bit of an understatement. The director is typically putting in 18 hours a day for shoots that can last for months. The crew gets 1 day out of 7 off, but not the director (and the crews typically also work long days—overtime is rampant). It's a frigging m…

Yeah and game development is quite similar in this aspect to film making. I was just thinking about the people who mostly sit at a desk and have their brains heavily engaged doing a particular task all day. IMO/IME people get fatigued by mental work way more easily than physical work, so its hard to compare the two. (Discounting some outliers like athletes, construction workers, etc)

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#128
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be fair to the poster you're replying to, he did mention reading Thinking Fast & Slow which is by the nobel prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman. When I read this, I realized something was wrong. Psychology isn't a science, and scientific Nobel prizes are awarded for scientific breakthroughs. So I looked it up and discovered that the psychologist Kahneman won the Economics Nobel, which makes more sense (ec…

You make a valuable distinction; Kahneman did not win the Nobel for psychology, and in fact there is no such thing. But to call psychology a pseudoscience confuses either the definition of science or of psychology. In Thinking, Fast and Slow , Kahneman spends the majority of each chapter outlining scientific studies in detail, many that he personally carried out, making the text a 500 page atlas of counter-examples.

> But to call psychology a pseudoscience confuses either the definition of science or of psychology.

It certainly doesn't call into question the definition of science -- that's well-established by a consensus among scientists. The consensus is secure enough that science is now written into law, for example laws meant to prevent Creationism from being taught as science in science classrooms. Here is an excerpt from one such law now on the books (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mclean-v-arkansas.html) (there are many):

1. It is guided by natural law;

2. It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law;

3. It is testable against the empirical world;

4. Its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and

5. It is falsifiable.

Because psychology's topic is the mind, and because the mind is not a physical entity, psychology cannot produce empirical, falsifiable evidence ("testable against the empirical world") to supports its claims. Therefore, based on society's accepted definition of science, psychology is not a science.

This isn't remotely controversial, in fact society is moving away from psychology toward neuroscience as we speak. The director of the NIMH recently ruled that the DSM (psychology's "bible") can no longer be used as the basis for scientific research proposals, for the simple reason that it has no scientific content. In his explanation (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-dia...) the director said:

"While DSM has been described as a “Bible” for the field, it is, at best, a dictionary, creating a set of labels and defining each. The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been “reliability” – each edition has ensured that clinicians use the same terms in the same ways. The weakness is its lack of validity."

"Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. Indeed, symptom-based diagnosis, once common in other areas of medicine, has been largely replaced in the past half century as we have understood that symptoms alone rarely indicate the best choice of treatment. Patients with mental disorders deserve better." [emphasis added]

> In Thinking, Fast and Slow, Kahneman spends the majority of each chapter outlining scientific studies in detail, many that he personally carried out, making the text a 500 page atlas of counter-examples.

Yes, but these are descriptions, not testable, falsifiable explanations. Science requires explanations, explanations that can be empirically tested and possibly falsified. But because this is a discussion of science, let's prove this point with a thought experiment -- let's say I'm a doctor and I've created a revolutionary cure for the common cold. My cure is to shake a dried gourd over the cold sufferer until he gets better. The cure might take a week, but it always works. My method is repeatable and perfectly reliable, and I've published my cure in a refereed scientific journal (there are now any number of phony refereed scientific journals). And, because (in this thought experiment) science can get along without defining theories, I'm under no obligation to try to explain my cure, or consider alternative explanations for my breakthrough — I only have to describe it, just like a psychologist.

Because I've cured the common cold, and because I've met all the requirements that psychology recognizes for science, I deserve a Nobel Prize. Yes or no?

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#129
post #69

When I was 25 to 29, I used to spend a lot of time at work. For a while, it just came naturally because I was so eager to learn; I'd stay at work reading books, programming, looking for information on the web and newsgroups (I hadn't internet access at home back then). But at some point in 1998, for a few months we entered in death march after accepting to be the rescue team for a doomed, undoable project; I've worke…

[deleted]

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#130

This false dichotomy is seriously getting annoying. If 60 hours is sustainable for you, do it. If only 30 hours is sustainable for you, do that instead. But stop imposing onto others what is right or wrong when there are so many factors at play. Some of my most productive memories are summers studying and working for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week (= 72 hours). I didn't get tired, burned out, or anything. Another summ…

> If 60 hours is sustainable for you, do it. If only 30 hours is sustainable for you, do that instead.

I'd love to, but no industry in the USA that pays a living wage will put up with less than 40 hours a week, because we fetishize hours-worked...which is another symptom of the same problem.

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