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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#291

Post by FireBeyond »

Fhch6HQ wrote: post #221
autoexec wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not millions of people, most people get Real ID Those that did had to pay $30-$60 plus fees (actual cost differs by state) to get one and will have to pay that again and again each renewal. This is certainly making money somewhere for somebody and not at all about security

What states do you have to pay for your Real ID every time? Yes, you have to pay to renew your license or photo ID, but the Real ID fee in my state (PA) is one-time. Renewal costs are the same whether it's a Real ID or not.

California would be one, because they issue Real IDs to non-citizens that are tied to their documentation, which needs to be reviewed each time.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#292

Post by duskdozer »

mothballed wrote: post #131
chickensong wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a patdown. They take you to a phone booth that has a direct line to some portion of the FBI IIRC, and they ask you a bunch of questions to confirm your identity. At least this is what happened to me about ten years ago when I lost my wallet in a different state and needed to fly home.

... and the law in most states requires only that you give your name and possibly your DOB to the authorities upon detainment. So as a purely academic exercise, what can they even do if you refuse to answer beyond that? Obviously in practice they will fuck with you or just straight up violate the constitution, but theoretically I'm unsure how they can continue to seize you after that.

at least, hold or delay you long enough to make you miss your flight.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#293

Post by mmooss »

ibejoeb wrote: post #27
mmooss wrote: post #17

It's an interesting argument. Is there a highly-credible, authoritative source? Maybe someone like the EFF or ACLU? There are lots of ideas online about the law, of varying credibility, and I'd hesitate to risk a lawsuit over Internet advice.

The author has been qualified as an expert witness in several venues.

Expert witnesses are not reliably credible authorities. They are people with credentials hired to help win lawsuits. I'm sure the author knows more than I do, but that doesn't say much.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#294

Post by jader201 »

caseysoftware wrote: post #269
runako wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." IANAL but I would be very cautious about lying to a federal agent, or anyone acting in a capacity on behalf of a federal agent (this is all of TSA).

Who said I'm lying?

It seemed implied by:

> Then I realized I could even skip that.

It would make sense that you weren’t injuring yourself prior to realizing this.

Again, implied. But agreed, you didn’t say it.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#295

Post by tantalor »

rayiner wrote: post #125

Saying that there is “no legal requirement to show an ID” is truthy but misleading. Federal law gives the TSA authority over “screening” passengers: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44901 (“The Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration shall provide for the screening of all passengers and property, including United States mail, cargo, carry-on and checked baggage, and other articles, that…

> doesn't matter that Congress didn't specifically require...

Actually it does matter. Chevron deference is gone. If Congress didn't specifically approve this method, it's not legal

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#296

Post by [deleted] »

paxys wrote: post #23

It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is. "You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane?" "Well I don't have a Real ID." "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." So it was never about security at all then, was it? And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and la…

[deleted]

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#297

Post by zzrrt »

ibejoeb wrote: post #33

It's a real head-scratcher that the cohort that claims government ID is unattainable for some people hasn't taken up this issue. "Real ID" isn't something that is just delivered to you. Now we're going to charge money not to have it?

Democrats usually complain that ID requirements suppress voters’ rights. Your right to travel isn’t as thoroughly suppressed by this as the right to vote is. It’s not a strong excuse, but it’s not totally inconsistent either. And, at least before this change, there were still ways to go through security screening without ID. If those are not allowed any more, maybe Dems will take up the issue.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#298

Post by Quarrel »

rayiner wrote: post #125

Saying that there is “no legal requirement to show an ID” is truthy but misleading. Federal law gives the TSA authority over “screening” passengers: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44901 (“The Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration shall provide for the screening of all passengers and property, including United States mail, cargo, carry-on and checked baggage, and other articles, that…

From TFA:

> The Paperwork Reduction Act (PRA), which is set law, provides a “complete defense” against any penalty for failing to respond to any collection of information by a Federal agency that hasn’t been approved by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), isn’t accompanied by a valid PRA notice, or doesn’t display a valid OMB Control Number.

As the article works through, as a Federal Agency the TSA cannot just label stuff "screening" and demand money, or at least, they can't do so and then make you pay it.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#299

Post by Spooky23 »

crazygringo wrote: post #140
eitally wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be more precise. The TSA has created extra work for themselves, and are charging us for it, whether it's legally required or not (because they pretend that it is).

Sure. But it's not "pretend". It's genuine regulatory policy they've created because they believe it's necessary for security, and this has been a decades-long project. The article is arguing they don't ultimately have the legal authority to make that regulatory policy. Maybe that'll go to court and be tested, maybe they'll win and maybe they'll lose. If they lose, maybe Congress will pass explicit legislative author…

No. Policy or regulation would have a basis in law. This administration has aptly demonstrated their contempt for the law. Nobody gives a shit about some grunt federal employee getting extra work.

This is just a way to compel compliance and to push the agenda for ID with higher documentary requirements, ultimately to deny the vote.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#300

Post by AngryData »

prashantsengar wrote: post #243
AngryData wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could ask the same serious question, why should I have to? There is zero reason to suspect me of being a suicidal maniac. Should we have such scanners to walk into a busy store or bus or subway system? Why don't private pilots and passengers have such screenings?

Tangential: Here in India we have security guards with hand-held metal detectors in malls, railway stations, and urban transit rails (metro) stations. The first time I visited a different country I was surprised to see my friend accompany me to the check-in counter and even further to drop me off. In India they wouldn't let you enter the airport if your flight doesn't depart soon enough.

I don't think anyone in the US really cares about metal detectors, humans don't naturally contain metal and it is done completely hands off with no extra visual or biometric information or saved data. Plenty of people in this thread who opted out of other security measures still walked through a metal detector without any special note. Court houses and police stations have often have metal detectors that even a Senator or President would have to walk through. The same cannot be said of direct imaging of your body though or facial recognition or anything. If you wouldn't put your children through the process to go into school each day then it seems completely bonkers to require it for any form of mass transit.
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