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France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

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Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#291

Post by LMYahooTFY »

izacus wrote: post #97
maelito wrote: post #63

The linked article from Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) is quite nuanced. It gives the police's view on narco-trafic crime, but also Graphene's take : "Criminals and traffickers also use knives." This organization, which is not a company but a foundation, emphasizes that its solution is used by ordinary people who dislike how apps and operating systems handle their data. It adds that if crimina…

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

This is a very counter-productive distortion of privacy, and borders on a lie about Graphene.

Something designed to be private doesn't know the difference between a law enforcement officer trying to break into it and a criminal trying to break into it.

There is no special "anti-cop only code" that gets executed, any more than there are special "cop tools" that exist on some physical plane where criminals don't.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#292

Post by LMYahooTFY »

strcat wrote: post #285
LMYahooTFY wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different from a backdoor in every phone? Some authority compels me to give them signing keys so now they can push anything they want, to any device they want?

They can't bypass disk encryption that way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46038241 It does appear to be what they want from us, but it's not possible to bypass the Weaver disk encryption throttling via compromised OS updates or even secure element updates. It's fully not possible to bypass the security of a strong passphrase, which we encourage via optional 2-factor authentication support for fingerprint+PIN a…

Well that's really good to know.

Been a happy user of Graphene since the Copperhead days. Thanks for all the work you do. I know you've endured a ton of shit.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#293

Post by ncr100 »

dylan604 wrote: post #122
ncr100 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure whether it's appropriate to trust Le Parisien's equivalencies. Q: Do they have a track-record of intellectual honesty? Equivalencies are powerful, and dangerous if mis-handled. E.g. this is worrying [from the article]: "A unique feature of GrapheneOS is that it can be obtained both on the dark web and on mainstream websites." Le Parisien is calling out GrapheneOS's availability on the "Dark Web" as signifi…

> and banned books are not illegal, yet, now now comrade, if the book is banned, how is it that you are in possession of it? you're clearly breaking the rules. I do believe it is time for you to start counting trees

It is disconcerting, as it's unclear whether the rule-of-law still stands, given the anti-Constitutionality of the current US Administration -- especially around due-process.

The trend of Democratic Decline seems provably real, along with a rise in Authoritarianism.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#294

Post by FilosofumRex »

Russia is as European as France and certainly more European than the US or Canada. Most of Europe's problems stem from trying to keep Russia out and Germany down.

The latter has worked well because Germany is, to this day, occupied by the US & the UK. But the former has never worked out and is now bankrupting the EU!

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#295

Post by cherryteastain »

gcbirzan wrote: post #260
kome wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sorry, but the EU essentially installed puppets in both Romania and Moldova, what are we even talking about here?

I'm sure you're very familiar with the politics of both countries, but tell me... How is Nicusor Dan a puppet of the EU? More than Calin Georgescu? The guy who actively tried to stage a coup? More than George Simion? Granted, there's no PROOF he's a Russian puppet, but he's a far right twat that has views friendly to Russia. How is Maia Sandu and PES a puppet of the EU? And... let's look at BEP. Voronin, Russia frien…

Remember when they just annulled an election when they did not like the result?

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#296

Post by johnwayne666 »

blueflow wrote: post #290
strcat wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has made it clear they expect to have a backdoor in end-to-end encryption apps and disk encryption. They've been saying that it's unacceptable not to have a backdoor in a bunch of these news stories they've gotten published by contacting the media. They've said if we don't cooperate with that, they'll take similar actions against us as they did SkyECC and Encrochat meaning hijacking our servers and trying to h…

Le Parisien is not the french state. I doubt you had any interaction with the french authorities at all. You are unable to any legal recourse because none of your rights have been violated (yet).

To be fair, the quote in the second article is from Johanna Brousse who is behind the Durov arrest.

> "Mais ça ne nous empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation criminelle et qu’ils ne coopèrent pas avec la justice."

> “But that won't stop us from prosecuting publishers if links to a criminal organization are discovered and they fail to cooperate with the justice system.” (DeepL)

I understand this can be seen as more threatening even if the whole quote softens this a bit.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#297

Post by drewbug »

M95D wrote: post #283
moffkalast wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know I didn't use to understand libertarians, but after years of watching boundaries being overstepped again and again I think I see the appeal of burning it all down and living in a cabin in the woods. Like, in Europe we already live in a completely safe society in historical and geographic terms, what more do you fucking want? Security is beyond a laughable excuse for things like chat control. Power tripping el…

> I think I see the appeal of burning it all down and living in a cabin in the woods. AFAIK, you're not allowed to live in a cabin in the woods in Europe.

Except in Finland :)

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#298

Post by rurban »

inglor_cz wrote: post #82
rurban wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, other states are not much better. UK, Australia, USA come to my mind. But this is excessive

We indeed seem to be in a race towards the bottom in this regard, but France was always a "forerunner". Already 15 years ago it was illegal to use Wi-Fi outside buildings in France . I still remember the old Nokias plastered with those warnings.

And I remember the longstanding argument why women should not be allowed to vote in France, because that's what brought Hitler to power. They were the third last European country to do so, only Greece and Switzerland were more backwards.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#299

Post by sigmoid10 »

gruez wrote: post #266
sigmoid10 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also the ploy of basically every VPN provider out there. They say they don't store or give out data, but they still adhere to lawful requests. That necessarily includes requests from countries where they legally offer their service, even if their HQ is in some country with lax legal frameworks. It also means, if there is a legal way to coerce them into recording your data or handing it over, they will do so. h…

They also mentioned they only respond to court orders (ie. not just because the cops asked nicely), will try to appeal as well. That's better than most ISPs, who would either give up data without a court order, or won't bother appealing.

The problem is that there may be perfectly legal gag orders (issued by a court) that force them to comply to normal police requests - and you would never even know. NordVPN in particular removed their warrant canary without informing their users and only gave some retroactive PR answer when people rightly started to freak out.

The simple truth is that if a VPN provider hasn't been shut down by authorities after more than a year (like VPNLabs was), then they are basically guaranteed to be giving out your data to authorities at this point. The legal situation in most western countries does not allow complete online privacy for normal, law-abiding citizens.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#300

Post by johnwayne666 »

strcat wrote: post #286
johnwayne666 wrote: post #202

HN title: "France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors" LQDN: "Dans ces articles, la cheffe de la section cybercriminalité du parquet de Paris – à l'origine de l'arrestation de Pavel Durov – menace également les développeurs·es de GrapheneOs. Interviewée, elle prévient qu'elle ne s'« empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation crimi…

France has made it clear they expect to have a backdoor in end-to-end encryption apps and disk encryption. They've been saying that it's unacceptable not to have a backdoor in a bunch of these news stories they've gotten published by contacting the media. They've said if we don't cooperate with that, they'll take similar actions against us as they did SkyECC and Encrochat meaning hijacking our servers and trying to h…

I appreciate the answer and the work on GrapheneOS! It seems there's a lot of work going on with the QPR1 release and this French matter doesn't make things easier for the team. Good luck!
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