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France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

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Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#61

Post by anonym29 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #9

Is it safe to assume, then, that Google and Apple already have backdoors in their operating systems as likely requested by many governments around the world (not least of which the one from their home country)? Or is GrapheneOS the only one built securely enough to need to be leaned upon? Either way, makes Google and Apple look bad and/or incompetent and GrapheneOS look like some kind of beacon of user protection / p…

Google and Apple were infamously official data providers[1] of the NSA's illegal and unconstitutional (as ruled by a federal judge[2]) warrant-less surveillance program (PRISM[3]) exposed by Edward Snowden.

It's safe to assume that software provided by every large, publicly-traded, for-profit technology company incorporated in the USA cooperates extensively with US intelligence agencies, and therefore by extension, the "Five Eyes" alliance, at a minimum if not also the "Nine Eyes" and "Fourteen Eyes" alliances [4].

[1] Slide 6: https://www.eff.org/files/2013/11/21/20131022-monde-prism_ap...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/us-court-mass...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#62

Post by hcal »

Covzire wrote: post #52

At the end of the day, these attacks on privacy are always in reality for keeping incompetent politicians and bureaucrat's safe from meritocracy. Built into the onslaught of demands of backdoors are two key ideas: A) That the backdoors will only be exploitable by the authorities and that B) they're even necessary to carry out their work in stopping trafficing. I think most people know by now the first idea is prepost…

"I think most people know by now..."

Sadly, I don't think that that's true. I've been shocked by the lack of understanding there in groups of technical people who should know better. It's even worse in groups of non technical people. I'm afraid this is an ongoing battle, and every time ideas like this come up from government it's going to be an effort to inform the public.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#63

Post by maelito »

The linked article from Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) is quite nuanced.

It gives the police's view on narco-trafic crime, but also Graphene's take :

"Criminals and traffickers also use knives." This organization, which is not a company but a foundation, emphasizes that its solution is used by ordinary people who dislike how apps and operating systems handle their data. It adds that if criminals use Google Pixel phones and GrapheneOS, it’s because these solutions work well. But that doesn’t make them accomplices, they assure. "Criminals and traffickers also use knives, fast cars, and cash—things that are also widely used by honest citizens," its representatives note.

And GrapheneOS adds that it protects users from hackers and intrusions by the secret services of totalitarian states. "We consider privacy a human right, and we are concerned about projects like Chat Control (a European bill aimed at detecting child sexual abuse material in messaging services, but which has faced significant criticism) that the French government supports. The invasion of privacy enabled by such legislation would have alarming implications under an authoritarian-leaning government," it argues.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#64

Post by ForHackernews »

https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/115589833471347871

> The FBI ran a sting operation in Europe where they created their own 'secure' phone and messaging platform. Their OS used portions of our code and was heavily marketed as being GrapheneOS or based on GrapheneOS.

So how do we know GrapheneOS itself isn't a honeypot? It's run by a mystery org and heavily marketed as being a secure platform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG was a CIA front for 50 years.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#65

Post by blackoil »

kittikitti wrote: post #60

There were many decades where phones didn't have back doors. Now, it's the opposite case in the most dystopian way. It's concerning that all phones are required to have back doors for law enforcement and the enforcement is severe. I know several people who have a corrupt "cop they know" that they can regularly contact for favors. Why is it so out of the ordinary to distrust law enforcement when they have these tools?

Before internet on phone, every communication was in plain text, so no need to have a backdoor in phone if you can tap directly into AT&T or Vodafone.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#66

Post by hamp95 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #9

Is it safe to assume, then, that Google and Apple already have backdoors in their operating systems as likely requested by many governments around the world (not least of which the one from their home country)? Or is GrapheneOS the only one built securely enough to need to be leaned upon? Either way, makes Google and Apple look bad and/or incompetent and GrapheneOS look like some kind of beacon of user protection / p…

It likely not due to any backdoors present, more so due to weak default setting plus alternate routes to the data. Things like backups being unencrypted either by default or when uploaded to the cloud. you don't need to ask for a backdoor if most users don't have encryption enabled.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#67

Post by marcinzm »

kittikitti wrote: post #60

There were many decades where phones didn't have back doors. Now, it's the opposite case in the most dystopian way. It's concerning that all phones are required to have back doors for law enforcement and the enforcement is severe. I know several people who have a corrupt "cop they know" that they can regularly contact for favors. Why is it so out of the ordinary to distrust law enforcement when they have these tools?

> There were many decades where phones didn't have back doors.

Your cell phone provider almost certainly will respond to a valid warrant and wire tap your non e2e encrypted phone call.

I'd be very surprised if the most common mode of remote communication in any time period was not subject to government interception in some format within a short time of becoming such. That includes physical mail, telegrams, landlines, cell phone calls, txt messages, emails, etc.

Referring to "how things used to be" is not in fact helping the case for privacy.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#69

Post by vatsachak »

maelito wrote: post #63

The linked article from Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) is quite nuanced. It gives the police's view on narco-trafic crime, but also Graphene's take : "Criminals and traffickers also use knives." This organization, which is not a company but a foundation, emphasizes that its solution is used by ordinary people who dislike how apps and operating systems handle their data. It adds that if crimina…

"Criminals and traffickers also use knives."

London already did this

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#70

Post by rurban »

inglor_cz wrote: post #5
rurban wrote: post #4

Into jail with those officials. Clear violation of their constitution

It is France. The state is them. Edit: I wonder why this is downvoted. The bureaucratic class holds enormous power in France, and has constantly acted against digital rights and privacy with impunity. The only institution that can somewhat restrain them is ECHR.

Well, other states are not much better. UK, Australia, USA come to my mind. But this is excessive
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