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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#291

Post by 0xEF »

thunky wrote: post #151
0xEF wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the suggestion needs more thought, but I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of making my exit before the dementia really sets in. I've directly cared for two family members who suffered from it (collective 5 years of my life, which I'd like to think gives me a pretty good view of what the disease can actually do to people) and I decided for myself that I'd rather be quietly killed than put my loved ones…

Sorry if I'm missing something but how do you plan to exit on your own terms if it's not allowed, and your only legal tools are DNRs and living wills? It seems like DIY methods could be risky to your family if you're already impacted by the disease, and your own competency is called into question.

You're not missing anything. I did not want to get too deep into it here, because let's be honest; thinking about having to take our own life is a really, really dark place to go, even if it with the best of intentions. I'm not really sure that HN is the place for that type of discussion, at least not on any detailed level.

At the moment, I have standing orders in place that no heroic measures or treatments should be enacted in the event that I am in a terminal or vegitative state. I've communicated clearly to family members that would be responsible for my decision making that things are not to be prolonged or dragged out for the sake of emotional contrivance.

Without knowing how we will die, it's really quite impossible to plan around it, of course. My comment, more or less, expresses my desire to have more control over my exit in the event that I am put in a position to become a massive burden on those I love; this is something I consider a reasonable and rational request, where the folks that make our laws do not. None of that changes without discussing and sharing our viewpoints on the matter, though, which I suppose was all that I was doing.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#292

Post by ryukoposting »

mcdonje wrote: post #51

The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone. That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it. There is a cost reduction incentive, though,…

I've waffled between support and opposition of MAID a lot, for similar reasons. I think the morality of it depends heavily on social and economic context. In the US specifically, I worry that MAID could serve as a roundabout form of eugenics, even if it wasn't disproportionately recommended to any particular group.

Imagine you're poor, your family is poor, and your friends are poor too. You spend 2 years in and out of inpatient care, and then die. Your family is now saddled with a debt they will never be able to pay. Your medical bills could make them homeless. Now imagine choosing between that, and MAID. MAID is obviously a cheaper "out."

Now remember the demographics of poor people in this country. If poor people end up being more likely to choose MAID, that necessarily means MAID would be used disproportionately on ethnic minorities and disabled people. So you end up with eugenics again, just because of the sorry state of our medical system and class demographics.

Not all assisted suicide is eugenics, to be clear. There's a discussion of Jain practices elsewhere in this comment tree.

But man did I lose sleep at the thought that we could have people volunteering to kill themselves solely because they're poor. You could argue that it's wrong not to give someone the choice to die sooner, given that dying later could cause so much strife for their family. But I hold that the right solution isn't making people die sooner, it's building a medical system where people never have to grapple with this choice in the first place.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#293

Post by teiferer »

AlexandrB wrote: post #235
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s irrelevant here. What is relevant is that we have a contempt for human life and a lack of charity. The teacher was not at fault for his condition. We should learn magnanimity. Sure, we can think about how the burdens of caring for our family can be lessened as they age, or how we may help reduce that burden for our family, but family does have the duty to care for its members, and to place such considerations…

> The teacher was not at fault for his condition. We should learn magnanimity. This is equally true of conditions like paranoid schizophrenia or psychopathy. Sometimes a person is just born with wiring that makes you dangerous to others. Does this mean that everyone around them must have the magnanimity and charity to them attacking people at random?

Yes, everybody should be interested in getting them treatment, just like they are interested in getting people treatment who have leukemia, were born with a malfunctioning liver or need an artificial hip. Instead, they get thrown in prison for the rest of their life because they are evil and we all can feel good about having made the city safer.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#294

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

jonhohle wrote: post #265
darkmighty wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!). I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble opinion. I…

The alternative being when someone becomes inconvenient to others we should encourage their death? What good is compassion or empathy when the lesser in society could just go off and die, right? Why stop at incurable diseases? Political opponents, coworkers, nasty service workers, double parkers, lawyers, and many other groups cause a lot of anguish and suffering.

No. But I think that people should be able to decide when they want to end their lives if it is because of pain that won’t get any better, a terminal illness that causes pain etc. while they have all of their cognitive functions.

But we should put guardrails around if the reason for assisted suicide is not pressure from relatives, depression, etc.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#295

Post by teiferer »

jonhohle wrote: post #265
darkmighty wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!). I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble opinion. I…

The alternative being when someone becomes inconvenient to others we should encourage their death? What good is compassion or empathy when the lesser in society could just go off and die, right? Why stop at incurable diseases? Political opponents, coworkers, nasty service workers, double parkers, lawyers, and many other groups cause a lot of anguish and suffering.

And that's what makes it a hard topic. Because you need to draw a line, and everybody will have opinions about the line's position. Rightfully.

But it being a hard topic does not imply the easy solution of banning it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#296

Post by lukan »

circlefavshape wrote: post #273
Noaidi wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists under…

Let's see how you handle suffering when it comes knocking on your door

He shared his brother had shizophrenia and much later died of it. I assume he did got a glimpse into what suffering means.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#297

Post by dns_snek »

sillyfluke wrote: post #99
AQuantized wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

The parent described someone who went above and beyond the norm of other members in his community in his constant positive interaction with his neighbors, collegues, and former students. It is highly likely this kind of person would give a considerable shit if he knew he would become a nightmare for the same community. There may be others reading in the thread who also can relate to the personality of the teacher and…

There's a difference between "I don't want the disease because I don't want to become a menace to others" (what you're saying) and "I don't want the disease because it would make me lose social status" (what the original commenter said).

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#298

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

Noaidi wrote: post #212
lukan wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me,…

> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists under…

If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better.

And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#299

Post by pardon_me »

teiferer wrote: post #287
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> it totally sours everyone's view of you. That's just as much failure of everybody as it is of him. This was dementia speaking and society needs to learn that. You wouldn't tell somebody with a broken leg to get it together and it's just their personality that they can't walk. Nor should you treat dementia like that. Yes, people seem to shift personalities and anger others. But those others need to understand that i…

We are human. Unfortunately all of our experiences with others change our perception of them, no matter how much awareness of their motivations and our history with them. We can try to ignore it and have patience. Apologies can help but relationships will constantly change.

It's certainly a failure point within us and something to be aware of to make effort towards understanding our own impact as you suggest. Sadly a problem with no full solution over long enough time periods.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#300

Post by jacquesm »

anothereng wrote: post #218
mcdonje wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide. I thought Jain the perspective shared in this comment is valuable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548178 Well, not just the comment, but also the wikipedia article linked to in the comment. Obviously, Jainism isn't Catholicism, but this part of the wikipedia article got me thinking: >It is not considered a suicide by Jain scholars because it is not an act of…

No, it will always be wrong to kill an innocent person whether that is yourself or another doesn't matter. Our lives are lent to us by God

You don't speak for or get to decide for other people, you only get to speak for and decide for yourself, and the same goes in principle for everybody else.
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