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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

291–300 of 369 posts

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warrant Canary-like system? Like "I hate the color purple, so if you ever see me in a purple baseball cap..." or something similar?

The problem with a NSL is that the gag rule is pretty watertight. For example, "oops, I accidentally wrote my password on a bathroom wall" is gonna land you in a world of hurt. You need to find a way to bring some of your other rights into balance (and conflict with) those of the state, to bring professionals who have a duty to protect your confidence to your defense. The power of the state is asymmetric warfare agai…

We have pretty much identical laws here (where here is UK) - you can be forced to backdoor things, you can't tell the customer and you can't tell anyone else in the company (not sure if you are allowed to tell your manager).

There was a whole thing about it a while ago, gov said "we are listening to your feedback" and then did it anyway.

Of course our system is actually worse in some ways - forgotten a password, they don't believe you (parks and rec style) "Believe it or not, straight to jail" (iirc it's a max of two years).

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warrant Canary-like system? Like "I hate the color purple, so if you ever see me in a purple baseball cap..." or something similar?

The problem with a NSL is that the gag rule is pretty watertight. For example, "oops, I accidentally wrote my password on a bathroom wall" is gonna land you in a world of hurt. You need to find a way to bring some of your other rights into balance (and conflict with) those of the state, to bring professionals who have a duty to protect your confidence to your defense. The power of the state is asymmetric warfare agai…

You use parallel construction of course, that's how the state itself does it after all.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#294
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but the family of the canceled policyholders should suffer for losing their mother/sister/daughters? Make decisions to harm others, don't be surprised if it blows back in kind. Golden Rule is there for a reason. Treat others as you would have them do unto you.

Have the families of those "insurers" made a decision to harm others?

Those families are/were more than happy with the standard of life being raked in by their breadwinner's willingness to make the unilateral decision to indulge in institionally driven statistical murder. So yeah, as one who walked away from Omelas in that sense, I think I'm pretty qualified to say yes on this front. After a certain point, a wife or husband not asking "so what is it you do exactly?", does rather reflect poorly on them.

Remember, every person working for an insurer has unparalleled access to data on what the effects of their decision is going to be. You can't claim ignorance once you've seen the glorified spreadsheets that run these companies.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have long-established legal precedent for dealing with such issues and much more. It can actually get quite complicated - which is why we defer to the experts and move slowly on such subjects.

It really seems like it's only complicated because there are an awful lot of people who want to do as evil things as possible and not go to prison for it Loopholes and lawfare are the tools of the corrupt

You'd think so, but no. Most of the complications come from handling edge cases where the innocent would get swept up, while avoiding exploitability. Making laws that actually do what we want is HARD.

Laws are like code: It only seems perfect until it meets the real world. And the complications only seem frivolous until it's your ass on the line.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

That's just false though. For poor people, if you have a conviction, it follows you forever and impacts your life negatively in a multitude of ways.

This is what people always say, but it sure seems like that guy was able to get a job as School Superintendent in Iowa. His past didn't get in the way of actually getting the job. It was only when ICE showed up that people noticed.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#297
post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

No. I oppose any formal requirement to practice software development. And this isn't because I disagree about the requirement to be ethical, but because it would draw a moat of "professionalisation" around software development, excluding new entrants. It's a fashionable trend across many disciplines: it starts innocuously with informal groups and seminars. Then someone starts one or more professional bodies which devise some sort of qualification. Then they start charging a yearly or triennial renewal fee for that qualification. Then they try to make it impossible to get work without their qualification. The profession comes under the thumb of people who spend their time getting on to the committees which control these professional bodies.

That can be reasonable for something like medicine or structural engineering. But is it appropriate for a developer cranking out Javascript or Excel macros? This is pulling up the drawbridge behind you, excluding anyone who comes to the profession through informal means - and in my generation, that meant almost everyone. It also means that you will need to determine how much of your time you dedicate to politics.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#298
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

You can't count the years you evaded law enforcement as time served during the sentencing process.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#299
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

Considering he just admitted it on public forum, Ima guess no.

I was hoping to get some insight/context into how they actually feel about it, rather than guessing. You can certainly come to peace with a past decision, change your opinion later etc etc.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#300
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail ... No legitimate business person I have ever met holds this position, if for no other reason than criminal acts pierce the corporate veil[0]. > ... so long as the investors and their staff are all insulate…

> No legitimate business person I have ever met holds this position Well, sure, that's true. But only because that's a no-true-scotsman fallacy in incubation. All these perps are "legitimate business people" until they aren't. And they cross that rubicon, almost to a person, still believing that they're legitimate business people and that this is all a clever hack. It looks obvious only in hindsight when you're looki…

> What gets them in trouble is the clever hacking, not a fundamental moral flaw.

I think you've got that backwards. Crims gonna crim. A clever hacker will evaluate ALL the risks, whereas a moral flaw blinds people to risks. Doesn't mean somebody can't have both attributes.

I quite literally stole an education, and there's a college transcript to prove it. I was a clever hacker, and I worked hard; I was aided and abetted by the college administration, inducted into the Masters candidate ghetto as an honorary member. When they made it a felony I quit that path, and following Hunter S. Thompson's advice [0] I went into business so that I could continue learning "on the job". (Nowadays they call it "OPT". Served today with a very thin glaze of sarcasm.)

During that tenure I met people who wrote theses for a living, who appreciated my industriousness and offered to admit me to their fold. I drank with foreigners ("muslims") who wanted information I might have or be able to obtain; I suggested that they get their home countries to forge documents and and then get admitted as students.

I've quit jobs after an appropriate "honeymoon period" when I still hadn't been furnished documentation demonstrating that we had customers' permission to be doing what we were doing. I've quit jobs when government compliance was considered a game rather than a minimum standard of performance. [1]

I pass government background checks just fine; no reason I shouldn't. I get the "dgaf" attitude, but I strongly suggest getting it in writing. Doing things off the books is a cancer; and it's contagious, like that 10,000 year old dog cancer which now moves from host to host.

[0] "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

[1] If you need somebody who takes risk assessment seriously, we should talk.

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