Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 369 posts

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#231

Post by watwut »

comprev wrote: post #226
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you live with yourself?

How is it any different from working at a gambling company writing addictive software? There will always be someone willing to do the work if the pay is good enough.

It is not much different. I would not worked for gambling company either. In fact, gambling companies have to pay more (and do, there are open positions) because their pool of potential employees is smaller.

The exact same question can be asked to developers who help target gamblers with attempts to push them deeper into addiction.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#232

Post by aydyn »

gregoryl wrote: post #164
peterpeppers wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

Considering he just admitted it on public forum, Ima guess no.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#234

Post by immibis »

gregoryl wrote: post #164
peterpeppers wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

I think it's still controversial whether manufacturers of substances are morally culpable for the result of people wrongly using them. And while you could hold the marketing or executive team accountable for trying to get people addicted to heroin, I'm not sure the same applies to programmers of an inventory tracking system?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#235

Post by jacquesm »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Sorry, but in this case I think 'lifetime' is very much appropriate. It's not like they're being sent to the electric chair. They were systematically ripping people off on what matters most to a person: their health. There is a good chance people died as a result of this. And since hardly any of these crooks ever goes to jail (but instead they get to do it again somewhere else) having their name out in the open for ever is very much appropriate.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#236

Post by jacquesm »

teiferer wrote: post #224
flir wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being struck off by professional organisations is a thing, though. On the one hand I don't want the bar to this discipline raised. On the other hand, I don't want people like us (metaphorically) building bridges that tip every two hundredth car into the river.

Of course not. But 10 years later, rehabilitation could be in the cards?

Depends on what you did. In this case: no way. You can fuck right off and you should never be in charge of a company again.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#237

Post by watwut »

testing22321 wrote: post #119
array_key_first wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, for most people, getting the shit beaten out of them is a preferable outcome to losing their job. For most people, their job is the only thing standing between them and being homeless, losing their car, losing their kids, their partner, etc. This is why having a culture that treats firing people as no big deal leads to wack ass incentives. You can make people do almost anything if you threaten their job enou…

That may be true in the US, but very far from reality in countries that have universal healthcare and a strong social safety net.

Countrapoint is that these dilemas are NOT dilemas of poor people struggling to feed their kids.They are dilemmas of well doing middle class who in fact, can find another job.

Seriously, we hear the "but the job, but the potential pay raise" exactly as often in a good economy from people having large salaries.

They have choice. They are choosing the fraud over ... still high salary but just not that high.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#238

Post by immibis »

LiquidSky wrote: post #136
bigiain wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection. Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes…

I'm not sure it's even at that level of rationality. People just don't think bad things will happen to them, either through naivety or a mistaken belief that they're so superior they'll never be caught. Jail is something that happens to other people, stupid people, not to me.

I think people are either too worried about things like this or not worried enough - no middle. For every time I've heard of rich people thinking they can get away with ridiculous scandals I've also heard someone being discouraged from legitimate economic activity because what if some really unlikely thing happens and lands them in jail for dumb reasons.

The latter type of people don't become businessmen, of course, so the selection bias is for the businessmen to all be from the unworried people.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#239

Post by jacquesm »

teiferer wrote: post #225
andrepd wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit disingenuous to argue "they shouldn't get life without the possibility of parole" when in fact most of this economic white-collar crime goes completely unpunished, or at best gets a fine targeted at the company and never at the individual people who committed the crimes.

To the contrary. I do find it a disingenuous argument to say "most of this kind of crime goes unpunished, so the cases we do punish, we have to punish for life". The solution is not harder punishments for those that are punished, but punishing more of them.

You're protesting a lot here.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#240

Post by nurettin »

jcz_nz wrote: post #115
jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

CIOs simply manage the IT budget and technology to be used. They don't necessarily have to be present for company policy planning.
Post reply on HN