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U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

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Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#291

Post by const_cast »

gruez wrote: post #160
47282847 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, “suicidal empathy“ (if that exists) is a lack of empathy (for self) — not “too much of it“. It’s not zero sum. You could go as far as to say that empathy only occurs in moments where there is no me or other, just an “us“. Which includes me. His statements and behavior make me question whether he really experiences empathy or whether he lost that too early in his life to consciously remember.

>To me, “suicidal empathy“ (if that exists) is a lack of empathy (for self) — not “too much of it“. It’s not zero sum. "Empathy" in the form of thoughts and prayers might not be zero sum, but that's probably not the "empathy" that Musk is talking about. He's probably about government spending on refugees or foreign aid, which is zero sum.

> He's probably about government spending on refugees or foreign aid, which is zero sum.

This is highly debatable. I would say it's not zero sum, because these costs further enrich the country in the long-run, just in not obvious ways. This is especially true for domains that naturally cross inter-country. Diseases don't care about borders, so it's to your benefit to prevent outbreaks outside of your country.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#292

Post by const_cast »

nailer wrote: post #287
ModernMech wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not being "incredibly clear" because he speaks about autistic people with one broad brush. And in calling this "a conspiracy theory" and "some kind of eugenics purge", you seem to be intentionally downplaying the very real and very legitimate worries of autistic people, a group who has historically been subjected to eugenics purges in the past, which started using the language and rationale Kennedy espouses. If…

> He's not being "incredibly clear" because he speaks about autistic people with one broad brush. You’re watching edited videos.

No, this is always the defense people come up when RFK says something insane.

It's not deepfake, it's not edited, he is just actually a crazy person. Yes, he truly believes HIV doesn't cause AIDS. Yes, he truly believes vaccines don't work.

We should not be listening to him on anything, let alone things that actually matter. There are people living on the side of the road with more credibility and reasonableness than him. And, we will not be gaslit by his defenders who, I can only assume, are equally as insane as him.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#293

Post by const_cast »

theoreticalmal wrote: post #158
RacingTheClock wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 1 in 36 kids having autism is similar to how breast cancer diagnosis shot up when we had better imaging ability or when we figured out prostate cancer was actually fairly common in older men but not usually something worth doing anything about. When we merged in aspergers and autism together that obviously makes autism rates higher and as research continues on diagnosing autism it makes sense rates increase f…

This is a very valid point, but one RFK has mention he controls for in the past

It's pretty much impossible to control for, because you don't know what you don't know. Meaning, you can't estimate how many people haven't been diagnosed in the past because, well, they weren't being diagnosed.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#294

Post by ModernMech »

nailer wrote: post #286
ModernMech wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not "acknowledging their existence" though, he listed a series of very typically human activities and experiences, and then said autistic people don't get to experience them due to their innate differences. First of all that is false, because even profoundly autistic people do the things he said they don't do. Secondly, it's dehumanizing because the reason he lied (yes what he said was a lie) was so that the lis…

Most profoundly autistic people don’t go the bathroom unassisted, or pay their own taxes. That’s true. > Kennedy to do whatever he wants to them to restore their humanity, whether that be a registry, concentration camps (or as he calls them, "wellness farms") or whatever else he has planned. Wild conspiracy theories help nobody, and also harm autistic people.

> Most profoundly autistic people don’t go the bathroom unassisted, or pay their own taxes. That’s true.

As long as you define "ability to go to bathroom and pay taxes" as profound autism, that's true. But as I said, autism is a spectrum -- there is no such thing as "profoundly autistic". That's not a thing. You're again trying to make a dichotomy, and this is a misconception both you and Kennedy share.

> Wild conspiracy theories help nobody, and also harm autistic people.

We are at the point where it's no longer wild. They are literally planning a database, and planning "wellness farms", and using dehumanizing language to talk about the worth of autistic people within society. I'm really glad that for you, these concerns autistic people have about these plans are esoteric and "wild", but for the people they are targeting with registries and camps, we cannot afford to be so flippant.

No one else is going to advocate or look out for autistic people, so we have to do it ourselves, and if that means people think we are overreacting so be it. We're used to being told that anyway.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#295

Post by ModernMech »

nailer wrote: post #287
ModernMech wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not being "incredibly clear" because he speaks about autistic people with one broad brush. And in calling this "a conspiracy theory" and "some kind of eugenics purge", you seem to be intentionally downplaying the very real and very legitimate worries of autistic people, a group who has historically been subjected to eugenics purges in the past, which started using the language and rationale Kennedy espouses. If…

> He's not being "incredibly clear" because he speaks about autistic people with one broad brush. You’re watching edited videos.

As far as I can tell I've heard all the words from that man and his surrogates. What are the words that have been said which I have not heard, which would clear all this up?

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#296

Post by jrflowers »

47282847 wrote: post #55

It’s interesting to muse about the larger picture here. What is it that makes autism so dangerous? To me it looks like part of an almost spiritual war against empathy/compassion by traumatized individuals trying to fight their own Jungian Shadow.

> It’s interesting to muse about the larger picture here.

I love the idea that, upon seeing the government compiling a database of undesirables under the pretense of fighting autism(?), one can zoom out and discover that the “big picture” is, uh, about autism. That is like watching The Sixth Sense and then writing about how it is a movie about the challenges of being a bald guy.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#297

Post by ModernMech »

nailer wrote: post #288
dns_snek wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He’s being incredibly clear that when he talks about people that have trouble participating in society Is that supposed to make it better? This distinction between autistic individuals who are productive and those who have trouble participating in society goes back to Nazi Germany where they sent the latter group to "reform camps" and "hospitals" to be murdered and eradicated. That's where the distinction of "Asper…

[flagged]

If you are going to

1) propose to make a list of people with autism

2) propose to send them to a concentration camp where where they will be treated

Then you had better damn well be prepared to answer specifically how what you're doing is different from what the Nazis did. If you're not prepared to deal seriously and substantively with that very relevent historical precedent, you have no business proposing the registry and the camps in the first place.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#298

Post by m463 »

jrflowers wrote: post #296
47282847 wrote: post #55

It’s interesting to muse about the larger picture here. What is it that makes autism so dangerous? To me it looks like part of an almost spiritual war against empathy/compassion by traumatized individuals trying to fight their own Jungian Shadow.

> It’s interesting to muse about the larger picture here. I love the idea that, upon seeing the government compiling a database of undesirables under the pretense of fighting autism(?), one can zoom out and discover that the “big picture” is, uh, about autism. That is like watching The Sixth Sense and then writing about how it is a movie about the challenges of being a bald guy.

> The Sixth Sense ... a movie about the challenges of being a bald guy.

wow, am I going to have to go back and watch it a third time?

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#299

Post by m463 »

everdrive wrote: post #140
0x1ceb00da wrote: post #78

One thing this will do is disincentivize high functioning autists from identifying themselves as autists, which is a very good thing IMO. Just look at this channel https://www.youtube.com/@NationalAutisticSoc/videos . There is a lot of survivor-ship bias on this channel towards high functioning autists who can talk in front of a camera. Just to give an idea to those not familiar with the difference between high funct…

This will unpopular, but I would recommend that anyone who can manage it to avoid any sort of formal psychological diagnosis. Unless you strictly need it for medication, it is always something which could potentially drag you down. Anyone can use the DSM (alongside an actual doctor) to get something of an "informal diagnosis" which will help them understand themselves better and to work with a doctor to form coping s…

It's interesting that you said this, because I know someone with a psychological problem and their therapist basically does something similar. The therapist just says he prefers not to label things, as it might get in the way more than help.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#300

Post by satanfirst »

hollandheese wrote: post #244
coldtea wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Even autistic people can be jerks. Elon Musk doesn't have empathy because he's an asshole not because he's autistic. No one I've heard is saying Musk is an asshole because he's autistic. It's Musk himself that's making that claim by attempting to use it as a cover for his asshole moves.

It's only like my opinion, but I think a man who describes his father as a "terrible human being" has enough awareness for self awareness unless the claimed disorder is something self obsessed like narcissism.
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