Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, I never read the quote as supporting suicide as a decision. But it's possible that a person contemplating suicide might see it that way. I always read it as being about empathy. Explaining that sometimes a person's action probably have subjectively valid reasons that we should try to understand, or at least try to accept. I read the gp comment's quote the same way that's why I shared this one.
It isn’t seen an condoning suicide. GPs point is more that his eventual suicide makes him less of an authority here. Bit like a relapsing addict trying to justify his drug use
People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
291–300 of 443 posts
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#292“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…
"It was useless to try to do anything. One could only watch the extraordinary efforts made by those tiny legs against an oncoming doom which could, had it chosen, have submerged an entire city, not merely a city, but masses of human beings; nothing, I knew had any chance against death."
- Virginia Woolf, Death of a Moth
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#293> "Answer": Suicide is not a mental disorder like depression or addiction. In a high percentage—70% to 90%—of cases, there is an underlying mental disorder but there are 10% to 20%, who are people who may reach a point where they make an existential calculation, see that their life no longer makes sense, that they do not have a life project, and they feel isolated and experience a certain tiredness of living.
I fundamentally DISAGREE with this interpretation (and what's more, I think it is a very dangerous one).
At the risk of invoking the definitional fallacy, this conflates suicide with something that it is not.
Rationality and "existential calculations" are not only irrelevant as causes in this context, but indeed manifestations of the 'condition'; human beings (and animals more generally) are pre-programmed to do certain things, that serve biological/genetic purposes in the grand scheme of things, but are completely irrational actions from a "logical" point of view. "Normal" humans primarily put dead organic matter in their mouths, not out of a logical desire to obtain nutrition, but because they 'hunger'. "Normal" humans, identify other humans to rub genitals with not because of a logical desire to practice fluid exchange or a conscious yet indifferent decision to rehearse procreational maneuvers optimizing for genetic diversification, but because they have 'sexual urges'. "Normal" humans don't rationally choose to sleep because they have a logical desire to replenish their bodies from toxins and train their neurons and memories, but because they feel 'sleepy'. And similarly, "Normal" humans do not simply choose to live or not live in the day because they feel their existence (or that of their offspring) has a specific, measurable, logical consequence that positively affects the planet (or whatever purpose the planet is here for in the first place); they go on with their lives precisely despite the hopelessness of it all, because they experience a deep biological imperative and hunger for "survival at all costs, for themselves and/or their offspring".
When anxiety or similar disease affects your ability to feel sleepy, it may "feel" like you're choosing revenge procrastination instead of sleeping, but really, your biological circuits that enable your sleepiness to override other functions are malfunctioning, allowing you the illusion of rationality and conscious choice. When you "decide" not to eat to the point that you are morbidly underweight, it may "feel" like a rational decision, but really, the biological circuits that control your brain's ability to allow hunger to override such behaviour is malfunctioning, allowing you the illusion or rationality and conscious choice. You may think you "decide" not to have sexual urges because of societal norms or whatnot, but really, if you are having no sexual urges, the part of your brain that is designed to override your social inhibitions in pursuit of procreation is malfunctioning, allowing you the illusion of rationality and conscious choice. And similarly, you may think that "I just realised life makes no logical sense" and therefore having suicidal thoughts sounds "rational", but really, the primitive part of your brain that lusts for survival is malfunctioning, leading to a perception of rationality and conscious choice in the matter of whether to live of not.
Similarly, the circuits can go wrong in the opposite direction: you might sleep too much, be bulimic, be a sex-addict, and you can make yourself crazy-hypochondriac-bipolar-whatever from an overwhelming desire to "never die" (i.e. a pathologically high survival instinct).
Feelings of depression or suffering etc may be important variables, particularly in terms of triggers and treatment, but are orthogonal to the problem. Indeed, there are countless examples of people undergoing extreme sufferring, but where that sufferring seemed to intensify their lust for survival, rather than nullify it. And there are countless examples of people who are living a comfortable life, ostensibly free of suffering, but are incredibly suicidal. We can see the same happen with other human urges. You can be not eating and be very conflicted about it, or be completely "meh" about it. Conversely, you could be stuffing yourself, and be very guilty about it, or be totally indifferent. In fact, a big feature of these conditions of 'diminishing urges', is that they feature "splitting". Once the programmable part (i.e. the 'urge') returns, the brain shifts to "it was never rational to think this". If the urge disappears again, the brain shifts to "it was always rational to think this". We know this very well from anorexia for instance; whenever the 'physical' matter is dealt with resulting in a successful restoration of the appetite function, anorexic neurosis often goes away with it. And thus the first pillar of treatment for anorexia is "treat the physical cause first".
Yes, depression and other mental disorders are often accompanied by suicide, and treatment of the former often mitigates the latter, but it would be a mistake to conflate the two as a single disease, somehow manifesting in a spectrum. Rather, suicidality should be seen as a secondary complication of the depression as a primary disease. It is a mistake to consider "yes they were depressed, but because of this suicide was a logical decision", as it robs a person who may have otherwise not "logically" wanted to commit suicide had they been 'restored to normal function', from the opportunity to make that decision in the right context and frame of mind (under the assumption that the "correct" frame of mind is the one that we have been programmed for as humans in the first place -- a deep philosophical statement in itself).
Life is not meant to be logical. The very essence of life that leads to its continuation is precisely the fact that there are things we do that ensure our survival (both individually and as a species), that make ZERO F**ING SENSE, and yet we do them anyway, because we're programmed to do them at a molecular level. If for whatever reason, life suddenly became logical, you could reliably expect the planet to blow up within a matter of weeks.
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the…
I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I think substance abuse is often treated as the underlying root problem when its just a symptom of a much deeper trauma or mental health problem. The lifestyle changes (often) required to deal with the underlying problem can't be forced on the person once the stint in rehab ends. They are usually right back to their old situation with their old friends in their old…
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#295To be honest, now being in a much healthier place, I still somewhat don't care about my life beyond the animal instinct of death being scary. I am still apathetic about my life and its impact on the universe. But I'm in a healthier place of being able to find joy in places, and finding a sense of satisfaction in enduring through all the effort that life requires.
Also as sad as it is, the thing that has nearly entirely alleviated my mental health issues has been adderall. It is by far the most effective drug I've ever taken for it, and I've tried a lot.
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
ChrisMarshallNY is sitting in judgment of the fellow in Holland who made use of the euthanasia laws there. Specifically: "I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions" (judgment) "I personally know many people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well" (justification that invalidates the man's suffering) "Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experien…
You have a point, but I would submit that "desecrating the man's legacy" is a bit ... shall we say ... over-the-top ... rhetoric? I assume that you have known many, many folks like him (and like me), and are comfortable being extremely and overtly judgmental. Too bad. I looked at your GH profile, and I suspect that we'd find a lot in common.
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…
Believe it or not, traveling and partying gets old. Most of us have an evolutionary desire to have kids. You may not, but it can take time to manifest. Look out for feelings of hollowness, boredom or depression. Parenting may be hard, but I've never felt hollow or bored or that life has no meaning.
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#298The article is heavily focused on how to prevent suicide. They note that suicide is sometimes rational (they call it "existential", euphemistically). I'm all for removing the causes of people wanting to die. But if people have any rights at all, the right to decide when and how you die seems to be the most fundamental. It seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of drugs (basically, barbiturates) th…
There is an easy way to get quick, painless death. One can just get diving regulator (from diving shop) and nitrogen cylinder (from industrial gas shop). As feeling of suffocation is based on raising CO2 levels, scuba mask that allows breath-out CO2 while breath-in N2 leads to fast asphyxiation without feeling of suffocation.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253647263_Suicidal_...
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among people with strong religious opinions. Kevin Yuill is an atheist. If you want the non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide read him (though, of course, as an individual he doesn't cover every anti-euthanasia atheist's point of view). I'm sorry for your particular situation.
> non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide I don't like the word "suicide" at all. It has strong connotations of sin and criminality. The phrase "state-sanctioned suicide" implies that the state has active involvement in someone taking their own life. What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die. "My particular sit…
Of course, you're free to think what you want about the word, I'm just relaying something I've read.
(I agree with the rest of your point, I just wanted to mention that specific nuance about the terminology)
Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Canada example is not about suicide at all but about the impact of a society without a safety net. The issue isn’t the suicides, it’s almost a logical response to a situation that is objectively terrible without a possibility or getting better.
It's connected though, when assisted suicide there, is not just legal, but increasingly accepted, nornalized, or even encouraged as an invididual solution to not having a safety net. So, the cause of the problem isn't the suicides - but they are offered (and used) as a way-out of it. This eases the burden on the state to do something to solve the root problem (why improve their condition, when they just off themselve…