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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#291

Post by rcme »

heatpumpfan wrote: post #133
rcme wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whole-house heating with resistive electric heating is going to get expensive, quickly. If they're serious about installing these in cold weather climates, they should have more information about the cut over temperature and the efficiency of the heat pumps at those temperatures. Just for context, my heat pumps cut over around 40-45 degrees to gas-based heat.

You have an older system. New systems can provide 100% rated capacity well below freezing. Mine is -5F and not specifically a "cold climate" unit. The unit in OP seems to offer 100% nameplate capacity at 5F.

These are brand new heat pumps. I don’t think it’s possible to have high efficiency at cold temps because of the need for a defrost cycle. I just check and mine are around 2 COP at 8F and 5 COP at 40F.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#292

Post by lukepighetti »

shagie wrote: post #160
lukepighetti wrote: post #140

I'm sniffing an air of "California syndrome" when it comes to HVAC products. The literature says 3-5x more efficient than my existing furnace. I believe that may be true in SF climate. But is it true where I live, in Northern Maine?

They're viable in Maine too. Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback https://wapo.st/3YK0hbC From an (opinionated) Youtube channel out of the midwest (Chicago area which isn't known for being warm) - Why Heat Pumps are Immensely Important Right Now https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI

I'm not questioning if they are viable, I'm questioning the blanket claims and the direct comparison. What kind of furnace? Natural gas? Oil? A heat pump in Maine is not going to be 3-5x more cost effective than a natural gas furnace in Maine. In fact, it's currently more expensive than natural gas, and at parity with oil furnaces. https://www.maine.gov/energy/heating-fuel-prices

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#293

Post by nerdface »

cmui wrote: post #123
heatpumpfan wrote: post #30

I recently purchased and installed a 3 ton MrCool Universal (Gree Flexx, I believe) with lineset for ~$4K shipped: https://hvacdirect.com/mrcool-universal-36-000-btu-heat-pump... Worked just fine during the Christmas arctic blast. We will see about longevity but at 1/3 of the price of your proposed units, I'm not worried about slapping a new one at any time. I am essentially on my own for service as no contractors wi…

My hats off to you for doing a DIY install. This is not a bad route to go if you enjoy/feel comfortable doing the work and don't care about air quality, smart thermostat integration, etc. Re contractors, we will have local contractor partners do the install and handle servicing, so you won't be left with an unserviceable system.

> This is not a bad route to go if you enjoy/feel comfortable doing the work and don't care about air quality, smart thermostat integration, etc

You're insinuating that doing the work yourself means you'll have poor air quality, poor thermostat integration etc. That's not true at all. If you've gone to the trouble to do a DIY install then you're now already experienced enough to install a heat-recovery ventilator to get fresh air into your home via an independent system. I installed my own ecobee thermostat with my heat pump and electric furnace and it works with HomeKit so is integrated with my entire ecosystem.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#294

Post by keithah »

RetpolineDrama wrote: post #196
cmui wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something we'd definitely consider. Is the desire to have thermostat control via any third party? edit - The current plan has been Matter/thread Homekit + Google Home integration. We can expose at least temperature control via this to everyone.

For me the goal is 100% local control. I found out the other day that I couldn't turn my 8sleep mattress on because a guy down the street struck a fiber line. My bed was basically a $4k brick as soon as the internet went down. Look at it this way, it saves you money in server costs and performs much better.

Hey, that happened to me too this weekend! Do you also live in Ingleside in SF?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#295

Post by dawnerd »

RetpolineDrama wrote: post #200
dawnerd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

>If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me. Why? a real smart thermostat can just use the existing wiring for power and then use IP over Wifi or Matter/Thread to communicate. Way better than the crappy wiring in most people's houses for thermostat control.

Because HVAC in theory should outlive most other standards that have come and gone. Its totally fine to built on top of it, but using basic hard wiring to turn on/off is essential - even if just as a fallback. in 20 years the hvac should still be working, but will the wifi spec it shipped with? What about matter/thread?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#297

Post by nemo44x »

Who is going to install these? I am close to a lot of contractors and they aren't going to install equipment from a company they don't have a relationship with. Who gets called back when there's a problem? They also aren't going to install something the end user provides. They make money on reselling equipment, etc.

Seriously, sourcing the labor side of it is a really difficult problem. Labor has to be licensed, etc. No one is installing this themselves.

And although the designs look cool, if it costs so much as a cent more to build then no one will buy it. No one looks at their HVAC appliances before they buy them.

I guess my point is - why would I buy this rather than just call my local HVAC companies and get some estimates?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#298

Post by itake »

thehappypm wrote: post #143
dawnerd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

Counterpoint — I have an app for my Mitsubishi heat pump and use it all the time. It’s way more convenient and lets me hyper optimize my house. I actually don’t even use the physical ones at all anymore

What is your plan if Mitsubishi cuts off access in 20 years or updates in a way that you're not comfortable with (like add advertisements to the panels)?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#299

Post by cmui »

heatpumpfan wrote: post #148
cmui wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hats off to you for doing a DIY install. This is not a bad route to go if you enjoy/feel comfortable doing the work and don't care about air quality, smart thermostat integration, etc. Re contractors, we will have local contractor partners do the install and handle servicing, so you won't be left with an unserviceable system.

Are you able to say more about that? "We will have local contractors" sounds great but in my area I don't think you will be able to find anyone to work with you. The local contractors and supply houses have closed ranks to fend off internet sales. I can't even buy sheet metal from the local supply houses without presenting an HVAC license. These folks are seeing their livelihoods threatened by a looming shift toward…

There are ways of working with local HVAC contractors that provides value to them and doesn't just undercut their current way of business. Electric Air can provide lead gen, tools to support install, improved payment terms on jobs.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#300

Post by cmui »

codingdave wrote: post #240

I'm all for this effort, but this is not yet a compelling story. I've never had a problem getting a heat pump installed in prior homes. So if the market value is avoiding pain in hiring contractors... I simply have not felt that pain. Asking me to pre-order something that already exists when you have no physical prototypes feels like you are jumping the gun. I do hope you succeed - I love heat pumps and want more of…

What regions have you done those heat pump installs in? There's a lot of regional variability. Thanks for the feedback!
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