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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#291

Post by julianlam »

ChickenNugger wrote: post #196
adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

> I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. Fault, distracted, intoxicated human beings are allowed on public roads. The "legal limits" for blood alcohol levels aren't 0.00%.

Interesting...

The standards of human drivers is lower than that of FSD, and somehow you think that this is a good reason to justify lowering the standards of FSD.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#292

Post by dtheodor »

varjag wrote: post #264
ChickenNugger wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Black box testing has plenty of techniques: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-box_testing Whether it's a neural network inside or not is completely irrelevant. That's why it's called "black box".

Practical neural networks operate in enormous parameter spaces that are impossible to meaningfully test for all possible adversarial inputs and degraded outputs. Your FSD could well recognize stop signs in your battery of tests but not when someone drew a squirrel on it with green sharpie.

Your run of the mill computer program also "operates in enormous parameter spaces that are impossible to meaningfully test for all possible adversarial inputs and degraded outputs".

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#293

Post by panick21_ »

andrewmunsell wrote: post #92
can16358p wrote: post #65

So are they recalling, or releasing a software fix?

I think this is a legitimate question, and a reflection of how the NHTSA needs to adjust their wording for modern car architectures. It's technically a recall, but it's fixed with an OTA update. But the fact that any "defect" that can be fixed with an OTA update is called a "recall" is confusing to consumers and contributes to media sensationalism. There absolutely needs to be a process overseen by regulators for car…

The problem is that almost no other car company is yet seriously fixing things with OTA. And 99% of cars on the road don't have OTA. So fixing the naming will likely happen but it will take a while.

Its crazy that Tesla has been doing OTA for 10+ years and today many cars are released that are not capable of being upgraded.

And even those few cars that do support OTA only support it for a very limited amount of system. Often they still need to go to the shops because lots of software lives on chips and sub-components that can't be upgraded.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#294

Post by b1zguy »

mometsi wrote: post #257
idlewords wrote: post #141

I love that this is the same guy who wants to send people to Mars one-way and then figure out the return trip later.

Anybody else reminded of that story where the guy gets a sketchy neural implant, then goes to a dystopian mars settlement, and then rips the self-driving feature out of a car with his bare hands? What was that called again? / puts on sunglasses preemptively/

Um, what is it?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#295

Post by alfor »

root_axis wrote: post #209
alfor wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the latest beta? How did it improve in the last 12 months?

Not sure if it's the latest, and nowadays I rarely use it, and when I do it's just to show off to curious friends, but I live in an east coast metro and I've never been able to use FSD for more than 20 minutes without it making a dangerous mistake - 90% of the time it's been a mistake making a left turn, turning into the wrong lane or oncoming traffic after making the left, not correctly respecting the traffic lines…

So it’s good enough that you let it control and become less attentive?

I was thinking that you feel in what kind of conditions it behave correctly (highway), low traffic and then use it in progressively more difficult situations as it prove to you it can handle them consistently.

I know it’s not ready yet. I heard as saw so many positive reviews (but still with corner cases and strange behaviours)

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#296

Post by adamjcook »

slg wrote: post #262
indigodaddy wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it’s more about using the most appropriate known terminology in order to try to get the most people to do the needful. “recall” sounds more urgent/dire than “software update”, and will likely encourage many more people to take action vs using “software update” or some less familiar terminology. The word “recall” in terms of autos has built up a lot of history/prior art in people’s minds as something to r…

The whole point of over-the-air updates is that the owner doesn't need to do anything. For example, both Tesla and Toyota have had bugs in their ABS software that required recalls. The owners of the Toyotas had to physically bring their cars in to get the software update which slows down the adoption drastically. The Teslas received the update automatically and asked for the best time to install the update the next t…

> The OTA updates do provide an avenue to make cars much safer by reducing the friction for these type of safety fixes.

True, but let us also acknowledge the immense systems safety downsides of OTA updates given the lack of effective automotive regulation in the US (and to varying degrees globally).

OTA updates can also be utilized to hide safety-critical system defects that did exist on a fleet for a time.

Also, the availability of OTA update machinery might cause internal validation processes to be watered down (for cost and time-to-market reasons) because there is an understanding that defects can always be fixed relatively seamlessly after the vehicle has been delivered.

These are serious issues and are entirely flying under the radar.

And this is why US automotive regulators need to start robustly scrutinizing internal processes at automakers, instead of arbitrary endpoints.

The US automotive regulatory system largely revolves around an "Honor Code" with automakers - and that is clearly problematic when dealing with opaque, "software-defined" vehicles that leave no physical evidence of a prior defect that may have caused death or injury in some impacted vehicles before an OTA update was pushed to the fleet.

EDIT: Fixed some minor spelling/word selection errors.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#297

Post by acover »

alberth wrote: post #271

Dumb question: why would anyone sign-up for a beta program, that could kill you if gone wrong? (maybe people just don't think through ramifications)

People drive motorcycles, which seems much more dangerous. I don't think the risk of self driving is that high but it does seem stressful.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#298

Post by maxdo »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #254
dshpala wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised how many people want a one-way ticket to Mars. I think Elon can make good money from that alone.

I'm not sure that the people who want one of those will want them if: * they are not the first (or in the first ~50 or so) to get there * they have a lot of money and a lot of income on Earth This is kind of a glory-seeking thing for people who haven't made a name for themselves otherwise. Rich people would want to have a return flight. That is not a recipe for making a ton of money.

think of it this way: you go there, work for a company, in a spare time, you find gold, raise capital to start mining it, got rich, build a huge house with swimming pools, and all the rich attributes, but on Mars. Mars will be colonized with great mixture of science and initiative people. Your kids will grew up in this environment, they'll receive best education and endless room for possibilities.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#299

Post by gg-plz »

breck wrote: post #125
thepasswordis wrote: post #21

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

Exactly. I think a lot of "people" online are paid shills. HN should severely downrank any "opinion" posts from anon accounts. I have a Tesla with FSD and it's incredible. Though it drives way worse than me, it drives pretty darn good, and will save a ton of lives and change the world by freeing up a lot of time for people to do more important things.

Is your post supposed to be read as genuine or sarcastic? It looks to me like a strawman of a Tesla owner stereotype, and I don’t want to accidentally eat the onion here by taking it at face value.

Your post appears to be saying that Tesla’s FSD is way worse than human drivers, not safer than them, but we should still welcome it for the convenience. Again, this reads like a strawman. I would like to think the average Tesla owner would not endorse that statement.

The goal isn’t to save time at the cost of lives, it’s to save both, non?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#300

Post by dreamcompiler »

natch wrote: post #208
dreamcompiler wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Tesla and have tried FSD several times (month-to-month plan and loaner cars from Tesla). It's comically bad. Fortunately every time I tried it I was paying very close attention so I stopped it from braking at green lights, trying to turn right from a middle lane, halfway lane changes where it snaps back to the original lane unexpectedly, etc. The regular, included autopilot works pretty well as a smarter cru…

You have never tried FSD. You may have tried FSD beta. Different things entirely.

Yeah, I was abbreviating. Nobody has tried FSD because it doesn't exist.
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