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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#291

Post by catiopatio »

preseinger wrote: post #151
catiopatio wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An increasing problem locally (Boulder) is the use of the permitting process to push high-cost climate goals on home owners, leading to them skipping permitting and inspection entirely. Here, you’re required to choose at least three expensive improvements from a set of eight (iirc), ranging from relatively cheap (electric vehicle charger) to very expensive (rooftop solar). My home was built in the 1970s, the bathroom…

"skipping permitting" is probably better described as "breaking the law" if you can't afford to meet construction requirements then you can't afford to construct, i guess

It doesn’t matter what you call it, or whether you agree with the choice, the end result of overly burdensome requirements like these is a decrease in the safety of housing.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#292

Post by mhb »

fragmede wrote: post #277
mhb wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are finite resources. Resources used to comply with overzealous regulations are not spent in other ways. Some of these other ways save lives. Pick whichever ones you want - additional smoke detectors, pollution reduction, etc., etc. It's ridiculous to advocate arbitrary, putative, safety enhancing measures without an argument about why that way of spending resources is better than many of the other alternatives…

In absence of "overzealous" regulation, a property developer could use some of the money they were going to spend on the job on, say, additional smoke detectors to make the place safer, but given NO requirements to spend money on something like smoke detectors, and that fact that it isn't their home or office they're working on, it seems far more likely excess money would go to other things. Like a bigger truck, vide…

Bigger picture. It's not the property developer. It's the cost of the additional regulations which causes the marginal house buyer to not spend money on a smoke detector or a safer car.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#293

Post by somsak2 »

Tor3 wrote: post #257
WeylandYutani wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. They're not scams. It is much worse than that. Everything was legalised by Turkey's government. This is why all the building company CEOs will walk free because their lawyers can produce the paperwork that proves everything was above board. AKP is checkmate.

Also "Why did so many buildings collapse?" https://www.bbc.com/news/64568826 Quote: In Turkey [..] the government has provided periodic "construction amnesties" - effectively legal exemptions for the payment of a fee, for structures built without the required safety certificates. These have been passed since the 1960s (with the latest in 2018). [..]Up to 75,000 buildings across the affected earthquake zone in souther…

This was also mentioned in this article.

> Construction amnesties, which allow owners to register unlicensed properties or ones that violate building codes in exchange for a fine, have made a bad situation much worse. Mr Erdogan’s government passed several such amnesties, the latest in 2018, ahead of general elections.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#295

Post by fragmede »

ethanbond wrote: post #289
fragmede wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technology where I am is largely still 2x4 pieces of wood for framing, with other tree-based materials for most of the rest of it, for one-story buildings. I've heard other places actually use more advanced technology for their materials but I don't see that changing how we build buildings where I am.

Do they use nail guns?

Ah yes, a tool that dates back to 1950. I'll fully admit that modern electric versions with quick charge lithium ion batteries are convenient as shit compared to the air compressor powered versions of yore, but you can't hold up a tool that dates back 70 years as some sort of pinnacle of modern technology.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#296

Post by ethanbond »

fragmede wrote: post #295
ethanbond wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they use nail guns?

Ah yes, a tool that dates back to 1950 . I'll fully admit that modern electric versions with quick charge lithium ion batteries are convenient as shit compared to the air compressor powered versions of yore, but you can't hold up a tool that dates back 70 years as some sort of pinnacle of modern technology.

My point is more generally that construction is full of innovation that does indeed dramatically speed up the process, even if the fundamental materials/techniques are the same (which in many cases, they’re not).

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#297

Post by 8bitsrule »

notlukesky wrote: post #232
terminalcommand wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Building companies are close to the government everywhere. Try getting permits without access to the city council or mayor. Turkey is a major faultline (and most of the northern Mediterranean) and seems to constantly have earthquakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_Turkey In the same area of the earthquakes now (the size of the UK) there was an earthquake in 115 AD that killed 260 thousand peopl…

There was another, smaller (est 7.5 vs. 7.0) quake in late May of 526:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/526_Antioch_earthquake

(followed by a fire) that also reportedly killed 250 thousand. The two figures are close.

A lot of historically big numbers turn out to be greatly exaggerated, maybe as a part of the storytelling process. For example, some old books claimed the toll of the 1737 Calcutta (quake or cyclone) was around 300,000 - while there were no more than 10,000 residents at the time. https://rashidfaridi.com/2008/05/13/earthquakes-in-asia/

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#298

Post by Kinrany »

LarryMullins wrote: post #5
mrlonglong wrote: post #3

If anything, the Turkiye government are dodging the finger of blame. The fault lies with the politicians for not stamping down hard on developers who flout building regulations and/or allowing them to construct buildings with a 'waiver' that lets them get away with substandard building.

"The fault" isn't some finite and indivisible thing that needs to be assigned to only one group of people. Politicians are at fault for not cracking down on scammers, and the scammer contractors are also at fault for being scammers. One does not diminish the other, stop thinking of fault as zero sum.

While it's not zero sum, government policies create competitive pressure, potentially creating a situation where only scammers can compete.

Heavily fining the whole industry and using the money to finance new companies being created would likely still be a better policy than letting them off the hook though.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#299

Post by kasabali »

amai wrote: post #263

Thank god Turkey doesn’t have nuclear power plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Canyon_earthquake_vulne...

Metsamor plant checks that box since it's only 10 miles to the border: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/110412-mo...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#300

Post by Steve44 »

ak_111 wrote: post #124

This is a global problem: construction red tape and regulations are one of the most annoying and expensive to adhere to, and with real estate prices sky rocketing around the world the most tempting to cut corners on to dodge costs (they are also very difficult and expensive to inspect, unlike in restaurant business for example where it is quite easy to inspect that the kitchen is clean). Take for example the Grenfell…

From what I've seen a major factor was the cladding manufacturer may have mislead architects regarding the validity of their testing and certification.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56101186

and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56403431

> The BBA decided the evidence from the more successful European tests carried out on the Arconic cladding meant it "may be regarded" as having met the British standard. > > But the Board was never shown the class E ratings for the cassette version of the cladding and knew nothing about them until a BBC investigation in 2018. > > Arconic's president in France, Claude Schmidt, was forced to admit at the inquiry this would have "misled" anyone reading the certificate, including British architects.

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